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Thread: Getting your A&P

  1. #21

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    I found my A&P certificate to be useless until I got my I.A.
    Can't do annuals without the I.A. so not much need for A&P since you have to work with another I.A. anyway.

    All this nonsense for small two seat planes is illogical and killing private aviation slowly.

  2. #22

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    Sep 2017
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    Earlier this year, I finished my scratch build of a Bearhawk LSA. During the build process, I had an longtime IA friend of mine answer questions and perform a few QA checks over the three years of building.

    When finished, I took the build logs to the FSDO to get my repairman's certificate. I also brought a letter from the aforementioned IA attesting to my experiences working under his supervision as well as a typed up log of my experiences(starting with two years as a line boy in college, through twenty years of "owner assisted" maintenance of my various experimental and certified aircraft, and ending with my experimental build. I reviewed the subject area requirements and was easily able to come up with the required subject knowledge as required and the thirty months was covered outside of my build.

    The inspector complimented me on my records and issued my permission to take the tests. I plan on preparing for the written using an online guide and then use one of the "one week to pass" courses for the oral and practical. That is the method used by several other friends.

    Note the permission to pursue the testing doesn't have an expiration date until you take the first test. IIRC, you then have two years to finish.

    I don't believe I want the liability associated with working on other peoples planes but would like the A&P to be able to perform conditional inspections on any future Experimentals I might own.

  3. #23
    cub builder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Berson View Post
    I found my A&P certificate to be useless until I got my I.A.
    Can't do annuals without the I.A. so not much need for A&P since you have to work with another I.A. anyway.

    All this nonsense for small two seat planes is illogical and killing private aviation slowly.
    I have found my A&P to be quite useful and have purposely put off getting my IA for the last 10 years or so. I work primarily on Experimentals, and since I have full time employment that pays much better than A&P work, I won't take on work that someone that's trying to make a living bending wrenches wants to do. So I end up with things that are low profit, but take up a lot of shop time like field overhauls, composite fabrication and repair, and fabric work. The IAs I know have always been happy to sign the inspections for my work, so not having the ticket has not been a problem. Having an IA implies a certain level of commitment with a minimum number of inspections and /or 337s fled per year and a refresher every couple of year . I just haven't had the time for that while still working full time elsewhere. As I enter retirement, depending on the demand in the area I retire to, I may decide to add the IA onto my tickets.

    Agreed. Too much cost and paperwork for some pretty simple airplanes is making it unnecessarily expensive.

  4. #24

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    Times change. I retired 20 years ago. Back then few experimentals came in for anything. I only had one Avid homebuilt in all those years.
    The primary opportunity at a small airport then was doing annuals on certificated airplanes. A full time non-aviation paying job is almost needed today, I think.

  5. #25
    Mallory's Avatar
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    I was in a A& P class in Tucson but am dropping it. It was a foolish choice especially at my age.

  6. #26

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    Jul 2018
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    Quote Originally Posted by jam0552@msn.com View Post
    One other thing was an issue for me- turbine engine experience for the "P" rating. I got plenty of reciprocating engine experience but turbine engines are so valuable and scarce, that only accredited schools have engines to work on/study.
    Joel Marketello
    It still amazes me that the FAA hasn't split up the Turbine and the Reciprocating Power plant rating, it makes zero sense to have them combined, they share nothing in common except a propeller if it is a turbo prop. I just don't understand the lack of logic. I remember in the past hearing about ex military jet guys trying to get P ratings that had zero recip experience so it so makes sense to make them separate ratings. Jet mechanics never deal with magneto timing nor cylinder pressure differential tests etc.
    One other question all I see is A&P rating here, cann't you still get one or the other alone? And what about an AI or IA what ever it is called now, can that be also had for one or the other? And then where does power plant stop and airframe begins, at the mount to fire wall? Or engine to mount?
    Last edited by enginesrus; 08-03-2018 at 02:09 AM.

  7. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by enginesrus View Post
    It still amazes me that the FAA hasn't split up the Turbine and the Reciprocating Power plant rating, it makes zero sense to have them combined, they share nothing in common except a propeller if it is a turbo prop. I just don't understand the lack of logic. I remember in the past hearing about ex military jet guys trying to get P ratings that had zero recip experience so it so makes sense to make them separate ratings. Jet mechanics never deal with magneto timing nor cylinder pressure differential tests etc.
    One other question all I see is A&P rating here, cann't you still get one or the other alone? And what about an AI or IA what ever it is called now, can that be also had for one or the other? And then where does power plant stop and airframe begins, at the mount to fire wall? Or engine to mount?
    This post has been running a long time. I can answer these for you. You can get either Airframe or Powerplant. Whichever you do first will include the written and O&P for the General. The other becomes an add on. This is where the 18 mos airframe/18 mos Powerplant come in.

    Your question about where the airframe separates from the powerplant tells me you have ‘t looked at the FAA text. There is not an easy split. As an example you will find that in some cases the gen/alt is A/F and some it’s powerplant depending on how integral it is to the engine, ie gear drive. Or belt driven.

    Your question about separating the turbines fm the recips is a long standing argument but the bottom line is that the ratings, A, P or combined are a broad brush certificate that means you know where and how to support the work with manuals and you have the practical experience to tackle the task in the first place. With a long military AND civilian background I have helped many cross those lines. Military need to add rag and tube, carb and mag exposure to their experience. They do NOT need to become expert but with my comment above, they need to UNDERSTAND HOW EACH WORKS and their experience in other areas helps them know where and what to use for manuals and correct ‘tools’.

    I don’t want to be crass or negative here but your questions are those of someone that doesn’t yet understand what that A&P certificate and the training and level of competence is really all about.

    As for your I A question you must hold both A and P ratings to be an IA. You must have held them for three years and have exercised them for at least 24 of those 36 mos. You must maintain the IA by performing at least one of the following: 4 annuals, 8 337s, a Progressive insp or 8 hrs of approved classroom training for each year and these can not be mixed and matched ie 2 annuals and 4 hrs trng.

    Until you get invested in the real A&P/IA training process either through OJT or classroom/147 school you can not appreciate what the little certificate means. (you buy a license for your pet.. you earn a certificate.. and not by just showing up...). The process is very worthwhile but don’t expect the requirements to be made easy or simple just because you don’t have enough interest to make your investment. For homebuilders the Repairman’s certificate is an excellent solution. If you built it you may maintain it, inspect it and return it to service.

  8. #28

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    Jul 2018
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    So I started in and around 1972 working at an FBO to at least get my P rating, and of course never thought to log the hours and get it signed off, kids you know. And then of course the nuts I worked for didn't bother suggesting it either, I don't think any of them are alive now. So I essentially wasted some time there. I just wish I would have pursued it better at the time. Yeah I've seen the books etc. but its been some time so???

  9. #29

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    Nov 2011
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    Jacksonville/St Augustine, FL
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    There is no absolute mandate that says your log of time has to be “signed off” by anyone but your own self cert. if you can run a list of what you did and the timeline that you did it it may give the FAA inspector enough to allow those hours but he’ll want to see recent hours for some too. I have had this work. Generate with some detail what you did and how many hours you worked. Be as specific as you can. Then get some current time logged doing engine work and general work after you get the texts and go through them so you are learning from the books as well as logging supervised time in the areas and to the depth the text involved.

  10. #30

    Join Date
    Feb 2018
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    4
    So far no one has mentioned the PTS and it’s replacement the draft ACS. I would print out the new ACS when it is released or even the draft proposal. Then in the space between each task, I would write in what I did to satisfy the task. The tasks can be satisfied by either physically performing them or through book work. If an A&P or IA can sign/initial each task as you do it, you will be showing the FAA that you made a professional and structured effort. If it is by book work, the A&P or IA can indicate the they discussed what you read.

    Discuss this his with your local FSDO. Building a kit plane doesn’t prove anything. Individual tasks, as they line up with the PTS or ACS, are what is needed. Just my opinion.

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