Icon "teething" problems.

[Marc Zeitlin]

[QUOTE=Frank Giger;62368]

My understanding is the incident involving swamping the cockpit included cracking the hull. I don't know much about composite hulls on water, and so needed to know if it's that unusual. If it had simply swamped, well, that's just the combination of the adventures of aviation and the hazards of boating. Maybe you know more about it, like if the hull cracked in recovery efforts.

No, there certainly seems to be a disconnect between what I was told and what was in the newspapers. Very hard to say exactly what's reality until a full report is out. Given ICON's visibility, I assume that the NTSB will do a real investigation - not the usual EAB stuff done by folks that aren't familiar enough with the aircraft to be able to accurately determine what occurred. If the hull actually cracked from a mere hard landing - one that wasn't hard enough to damage the folks inside, that's probably an issue that will need to be addressed.

The accident seems to be the aircraft striking a steep bank (from pictures, which might be out of context). I'm really, really hesitant to chalk that up to pilot error. Something else was going on there. We'll have to wait for the NTSB to find out.

So the A5 will not spin, HOWEVER, if forced, it can "depart" and enter a spiral dive. Aerodynamically, that's a very different thing from a spin, but it's still descending nose down while turning around. Recovery is different than from a spin, and it's difficult to get it to depart, but it is possible. One theory that has been proposed to me (and which I believe is one of many possible explanations that fit the evidence shown in the public pictures) is that _IF_ there was some demonstration of the "non-spin" capabilities of the plane (which I've experienced) that occurred at relatively low altitude, a spiral dive occurred. Without the altitude to recover, a vertical-ish impact with the steep bank of the lake could occur. Given the angle of the right wing, which was twisted forward and down, and the broken left wingtip which was broken aft, as well as the demolished nose of the plane, a nose down spiral dive to the right could be one possible explanation for the extant damage. Hardly the only possible explanation, but one.

The pilot error, in this case, would be in engaging in this demonstration at low altitudes. Without any witnesses to indicate what the plane was doing before it struck the bank, though, it'll take some investigative work by the FAA/NTSB/ICON team to determine what the plane was doing when it struck the ground and in what attitude.

I'd like to see the Icon succeed, if only because we need a small aircraft company to shake things up and spark GA.

Absolutely. The industry is dying, and not slowly, either.

They've made some very odd decisions through the development of the A5, though, that makes me wonder where the hype ends.

Yep. Hence my not working there after the year I did work there. They have certainly shot themselves in the foot a number of times. I would done things very differently had I been appointed emperor, but sadly, that didn't (and hasn't, and certainly won't) occur. And there's no guarantee, even with my amazingly superior intellect (that's a joke, son), that anything I would have done differently would have made a damn bit of difference, since the issues might be depending on the goal, not the path. We must always question our own certainty about any opinion we hold...

[Bill Berson]

Only 10 takeoffs and landings is required to get a Sport Pilot Certificate and take a passenger.
FAR 61.313.https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/retriev...se14.2.61_1313

I don't think the FAA planned the rules with this in mind. With retracts it's almost a complex aircraft. Yet the limited hours of Sport Pilot training to non-pilots is heavily marketed by the company. I suppose the company might require more than 10 landings minimum before purchase. But can they require same of a second hand buyer?
Seaplanes are a tiny niche. I can't see any seaplane ever saving private aviation.

[martymayes]

Still have to pass a practical test so the reality of training until adequate proficiency is attained will present itself eventually.

I agree - an LSA seaplane is a niche market under the very large GA banner.

Long term, might have to accept the fact that there is not enough interest for a manufacturer to profitably produce a very light airplane anymore, that is those with a gross weight under 2000 lb. Doesn't mean the entire GA industry is going to die and disappear. Last time I checked, Cirrus sells planes like hotcakes and the Cessna 172 is still being produced but if someone wants something smaller, under 2000 lb gross wt, they might have to build it themselves from a kit or buy one that some other individual built.

[Marc Zeitlin]

Long term, might have to accept the fact that there is not enough interest for a manufacturer to profitably produce a very light airplane anymore, that is those with a gross weight under 2000 lb.

Agreed. That might be the case. But with about 1800 aircraft on order, ICON has a few years of backlog to determine whether it is or not.

Doesn't mean the entire GA industry is going to die and disappear. Last time I checked, Cirrus sells planes like hotcakes...

If your definition of "like hotcakes" is 300 units/year. I'd argue that's more like 1/12 of Lamborghini's sales in a year, and it's not like Lambo's are taking over the car market. When the largest single piston aircraft MFG is smaller by an order of magnitude than one of the smaller car MFG's, that doesn't bode well for the popularity of GA flight.

and the Cessna 172 is still being produced...

As are many others aircdraft, but only 700 - 750 piston engine GA aircraft were sold in the US last year. That is NOT a number that bodes well for GA in the years to come, and there are about 1/2 as many active pilots in the US as there were 20 years or so ago. There are somewhere around 1 pilot for every 1000 US citizens. Not a happy thought.

The object with ICON is specifically to bring new folks into aviation - selling to existing pilots is a niche business at best. If new markets can't be developed, then we're dead in 20 years as a viable community.

My $0.02.

[martymayes]

The object with ICON is specifically to bring new folks into aviation - selling to existing pilots is a niche business at best. If new markets can't be developed, then we're dead in 20 years as a viable community.

Therein may lie a fundamental flaw in the plan. Looking at history, a large number of light planes were produced at the end of WWII in anticipation of the "new market" for light planes and pilots. We know how that turned out. I can't think of a single example where "large" numbers of people were drawn into aviation because of a new model plane being introduced, "large" being relative. I see it as a tough sell. Percentage of the young digital population that can afford a flying jet ski seem to be more in the risk adverse category, more interested in saving/preserving lakes and waterways from from those cowboys and their "annoying machines"

Looking again at reality, might have to accept that the light aircraft segment of GA is not and may never be a mainstream activity. At least not until we get to the George Jetson era. If demand for light planes suddenly appeared, I think supply would increase to fill the void and it won't take Textron 10+ yrs to bring a product to market.

I hope they do eventually build and sell the A5. I'd like a ride in one because I'll never own one.

[Floatsflyer]

I hope they do eventually build and sell the A5. I'd like a ride in one because I'll never own one.

Lucky for you Marty, Icon can continue NOT to build, sell or deliver anything in order for you to ride in one without the hassle of ever owning(a thing?) one. These guys think of everything. They have opened 2 flight centres, in Vacaville, Cal and Tampa, Fla, where the general public can book a flight and fly one.

Caveat though. I'd call ahead. The two accidents may have depleted the available fleet.

[martymayes]

Lucky for you Marty, Icon can continue NOT to build, sell or deliver anything in order for you to ride in one without the hassle of ever owning(a thing?) one. These guys think of everything. They have opened 2 flight centres, in Vacaville, Cal and Tampa, Fla, where the general public can book a flight and fly one.

Caveat though. I'd call ahead. The two accidents may have depleted the available fleet.

lol, I'll have to read the fine print. Some other aggressive airplane sales companies check your credit before the give a demo ride.

[Frank Giger]

LOL on the FAA minimums for Sport Pilot requirements.

No pilot that is starting from scratch is going to complete training - let alone pass a check ride - with just ten full stop landings.

I got my ticket with 26 hours, and I thought I was pretty darned good (passed that check ride no sweat). But I had a helluvalot of landings. And a great instructor.

[Cary]

I met several of the Icon folks at OSH, at the SPA Corn Roast a couple of years ago. Nice people, dedicated, ambitious--all the positive traits I can think of but one, practicality. That's the fly in the ointment.

That lack of practicality is most demonstrated in the advertising that Icon has had since the beginning--the jet ski of the air sort of thing is a pretty accurate metaphor. And I find that really bothersome. Sure, there are cowboy types that fly other airplanes much like Icon advertises, but for the most part, flying somewhat conservatively, even in a very fun environment, is the answer to anyone's desire for a long life in aviation.

Maybe at my age, I'm getting to be fuddy-duddyish, because I certainly did some super dumbbell things as a younger pilot. But that old saying, there are old pilots and bold pilots but no old bold pilots, is more than just a little accurate. Many pilots who do the hi-jinks that the Icon ads portray won't live to tell their grandkids about it. Sure, some will. But at this point in my life, I would not fly an airplane like the videos on the Icon website show. And I would not encourage others to do so with statements like:

Limits. Boundaries. Borders. You’ve spent your whole life ignoring them. Don’t stop now.

You know that stuff that’s missing from your life? Speed. Exhilaration. Pure excitement. Look no further.

Assume that deliveries actually do happen, I think that when buyers take delivery and discover that it takes more than a few hours and landings to safely fly the A5, there will be a groundswell of backlash. People who can afford such an airplane don't take kindly to being misled, and I think that's exactly what Icon has done--the potential buyers just don't know that yet.

Cary