Hand propping questions

[1600vw]

Just some thoughts to throw into the discussion.

First, if hand-propping is the only thing available, LEARN HOW TO DO IT RIGHT! Just because you saw how to do it on YouTube doesn't mean that you can do it yourself.

Second, if there is any way to start the engine other than hand-propping, use it. Even for experienced hand-proppers, it's a dangerous task. All you have to do is slip a little, or have the airplane jump the chocks or come untied, or whatever.

Third, don't be surprised if any engine can run much longer with the fuel selector off than what you've seen in this thread. Here's my own example: we were at Concord Airpark (2G1) in our Skylane (this was about 41 years ago). The airplane was parked on a slant, so I'd left the fuel selector off for several days to keep the fuel from flowing from one tank to the other and out the vent. We had loaded up, I had done the preflight (including turning the fuel selector on), and went into the office to obtain my clearance from Cleveland Center. I was given a void time of only 10 minutes, which should have been enough. But when I came out of the office, Wife 1 had unloaded the kids and dog again "for one last potty stop". I saw the fuel flowing out the vent, so I reached in and turned the selector off again and told everyone to hurry up. By the time we reloaded everyone, the void time was close to running out, so I was in a hurry--big mistake. I fired up, and we taxied the length of the runway (2100') to the run-up area, did the engine run-up, and took the runway for take off. I firewalled it, and we moved forward probably 50-100' before the engine suddenly died. I immediately realized that I had failed to turn the selector back on, but there wasn't sufficient runway after we rolled while I turned it back on, so we back taxied before trying again. How long did that take? Assume we taxied at 15 mph .4 miles, that's about 1 1/2 minutes. Add another half minute for the engine run-up. That's at least 2 minutes, in an engine that at idle drinks a lot more than the much smaller engines that have been discussed. In 2 minutes, a lot of havoc can occur.

FWIW, my view is that if hand-propping must be done, both the person swinging the prop and the person at the controls must be qualified, and they must go over the "signals" before anything is done. I don't care if the signals are non-standard, just so both know what each other means. If it has to be done alone, then both chocking and tying down is essential. Yeah, people do it without one or the other or sometimes both all the time, but that doesn't make it wise, or right, or safe.

Bottom line: props are dangerous, like loaded guns. Any time a prop is moved, it must be respected as something that might suddenly move more on its own. If it's going to be used to start the airplane, then every precaution must be taken, for the sake of the person swinging the prop and people and property nearby.

Cary

So what do you recommend..Hiring the dude that made the Youtube Video to show you in person how to do what he just showed on a youtube video? I myself am glad the Wright Brothers did not have this view. We would have never gotten into aviation. Who could they call to get this training or endorsement?

I have been hand propping for 6 years. No one taught me but youtube and reading on the subject. I hand propped 5 airplanes yesterday. But then again I taught my self most things I do today.

Tony

[jkoper]

I fly a Piper Vagabond. The system that I have is to tie the tail, and I have a set of chocks with para-cord attached to them that is long enough that I can tie it to my wing strut. With the mags off and throttle CLOSED I flip her through 4-5 blades to prime if cold, then left mag on, throttle still closed and it will catch on the 1st or 2nd blade. Then check oil pressure and mags to both (still at idle). If an engine will not start and run with the throttle all the way closed I do not need to fly behind it until it will. Now I can untie the tail climb in, hold the brakes reach over untie the cord and pull the chocks loose and throw them in the baggage area and I am ready to go. This setup won't work for every airplane but it works great for the Vagabond.


Jim

[Cary]

So what do you recommend..Hiring the dude that made the Youtube Video to show you in person how to do what he just showed on a youtube video? I myself am glad the Wright Brothers did not have this view. We would have never gotten into aviation. Who could they call to get this training or endorsement?

I have been hand propping for 6 years. No one taught me but youtube and reading on the subject. I hand propped 5 airplanes yesterday. But then again I taught my self most things I do today.

Tony

You've been lucky. Many have been seriously injured or worse, attempting to do it on their own without anyone showing them directly. The EAA does a pretty good job of training at OSH each year. I strongly recommend that anyone who anticipates hand-propping attend the demonstration, and learn how to do it right.

Incidentally, I've watched "experienced" people do it wrong--and someday, they'll get hurt. I don't know if you're doing it right or wrong, but if you're doing it wrong, I hope that you're not among those who will be hurt.

Cary

[1600vw]

You've been lucky. Many have been seriously injured or worse, attempting to do it on their own without anyone showing them directly. The EAA does a pretty good job of training at OSH each year. I strongly recommend that anyone who anticipates hand-propping attend the demonstration, and learn how to do it right.

Incidentally, I've watched "experienced" people do it wrong--and someday, they'll get hurt. I don't know if you're doing it right or wrong, but if you're doing it wrong, I hope that you're not among those who will be hurt.

Cary

Every time I want to fly I must hand prop. Some believe the only way to learn something is to have ones hand held, as whatever it is you are learning is learned. They will then say because no one held your hand you have no idea what you are doing. Even trained people get hurt. They are called accidents. If this was not the case we would not have folks who have had training crash or have accidents. Accidents can happen to anyone.

But I do know of those who taught themselves how to do, aerobatics, how to fly a tail wheel, ect...They then went out and received their endorsement after they taught themselves how to do it. Many have done this. Some can and some can't. It's those who can't and those who want their palms greased that will tell everyone..you need your hand held. Not everyone needs this type of training to learn something and learn it correctly. Again just because no formal training does not mean its being done wrong. It just means they are book learners and don't need a picture drawn or blue prints made up to show how one does it.

It's also how the Wright Brothers did it. Now do I believe we are like the Wright Brothers. No for today we have those that can help if you find you do indeed need your hand held as you learn. I have needed this type of training I call hands on for many things. Then for many other things, no I did not need this type of training.


Tony

[1600vw]

This thread reminds me of the man who lived next door to me. They had four children. We lived by a river, we were river rats as they say. This man spent a lot of time on the river in a little John boat. He took all his kids out one day, tossed them over into the river and said swim or sink.
I could not swim if my life depended on it. I needed hands on training and a lot of it. But it is how I learned. My friends, they had no one show them. It was swim or sink. At ages 4-10 imagine being thrown into a river and told to swim or sink, but many learned this way back in the day. How I learned to drive a car. The keys were thrown at me at age 11 and I was told to drive. I drove..lol....

Tony

[DaleB]

Well... hardly the best method of learning to swim or drive, for sure. No better than pointing someone at an airplane and saying, "Here, go start that thing, willya? Just flip the prop a time or two and try not to lose an arm". I learned to ride a motorcycle by buying one and immediately leaving on a trip of a couple hundred miles. Yes, I got there, but many years later when I took the Basic Rider Course I learned all the things I had been doing wrong, some of which caused me a couple of spills and many more near disasters. So - can you learn the hard way? Sure, probably, you may even live to tell the tale. Should you? Maybe not if there's someone around who can show you the ropes. Of course that assumes your instructor actually knows wht he or she is doing. I've had some pretty sketchy "instruction" passed down by well meaning people.

I certainly wouldn't say that just watching any old YouTube video would be the way to learn hand propping an engine, or anything else. Any idiot can post nonsense on the Internet, and it seems nearly every idiot does. That's not to say there is no good information available via YT or other sources. Some things, like driving or flying, really do need in-person, one on one training. Other things can be learned by watching and doing. Then there are those things that can be learned by watching, but there is a strong argument to be made for having someone who's done it before on hand to make sure you don't hurt yourself the first few times you try it.

[1600vw]

Well... hardly the best method of learning to swim or drive, for sure. No better than pointing someone at an airplane and saying, "Here, go start that thing, willya? Just flip the prop a time or two and try not to lose an arm". I learned to ride a motorcycle by buying one and immediately leaving on a trip of a couple hundred miles. Yes, I got there, but many years later when I took the Basic Rider Course I learned all the things I had been doing wrong, some of which caused me a couple of spills and many more near disasters. So - can you learn the hard way? Sure, probably, you may even live to tell the tale. Should you? Maybe not if there's someone around who can show you the ropes. Of course that assumes your instructor actually knows wht he or she is doing. I've had some pretty sketchy "instruction" passed down by well meaning people.

I certainly wouldn't say that just watching any old YouTube video would be the way to learn hand propping an engine, or anything else. Any idiot can post nonsense on the Internet, and it seems nearly every idiot does. That's not to say there is no good information available via YT or other sources. Some things, like driving or flying, really do need in-person, one on one training. Other things can be learned by watching and doing. Then there are those things that can be learned by watching, but there is a strong argument to be made for having someone who's done it before on hand to make sure you don't hurt yourself the first few times you try it.

Tell the Wright brothers all this. They seemed to learn from a book just fine. They then went out and put what they learned to practice. We are lucky and have others who have done it to explain how its done. You do not have to pay some one to get this info. The ones who believe you do are the ones wanting this pay...IMHO

You like twisting words. I said teaching one self by reading and many other things. Not just watching some video then go and do it..But then if you did not twist things you would have no argument. Some like to argue. Nuff said.

Tony

[Floatsflyer]

Tell the Wright brothers all this. They seemed to learn from a book just fine. They then went out and put what they learned to practice. Tony

No, no, no, no, no,......you got it all wrong. No book required. I know that Orville and Wilbur viewed YouTube videos to learn how to hand prop. Then they looked at other videos to figure out how to make ailerons, use micro vortex generators, build an electric starter because they were scared s**tless about losing their arms and manufacture landing gear so they could actually fly somewhere rather than just do silly circuits around some cow dung filled pastures.

You could look it up.

[DaleB]

Tell the Wright brothers all this. They seemed to learn from a book just fine. They then went out and put what they learned to practice. We are lucky and have others who have done it to explain how its done. You do not have to pay some one to get this info. The ones who believe you do are the ones wanting this pay...IMHO

You like twisting words. I said teaching one self by reading and many other things. Not just watching some video then go and do it..But then if you did not twist things you would have no argument. Some like to argue. Nuff said.

Tony

Twisting words? Uncalled for, pal. I don't know if this is a reading comprehension thing or what, but you're way off in left field with that comment. I'm a big fan of self teaching, and if you knew the first thing about me you'd know what that means. You truly have no idea. I pointed out that "learning" high-risk activities such as in your own examples... tossing a kid in the water to "learn" to swim, or handing an 11 year old car keys to "learn" to drive is not the brightest idea. Sure, some will learn just fine. Others will die young. A failure rate of less than 100% does not necessarily indicate success.

And just to bring things back somewhere in the vicinity of the topic at hand... I've seen YouTube videos about hand propping. I've read about hand propping. I could probably do it solo if I had to, possibly even without damage or injury. I don't assume that I know enough from reading and watching to do it safely. Call me crazy, but I'd still prefer to have someone experienced show me how the first time or two. The question I had -- which was answered a few pages back -- was how to handle doing it if you're out in the boonies with no one around to help out.

[1600vw]

Saying all this, if someone wanted a radial or something like this hand propped, I would not step up and hand prop that. But if you need your A-65, or 0-200 propped I would do that.

Tony