Airline does it better

[cluttonfred]

CDS, please delete your posts. One of our employees needs the forum space.

[DaleB]

There are other ways to get crew members from point a to point B without throwing paying customers off the plane. If the airline needs to send them via car, train, bus, or air taxi, that's a cost of doing business. If you run an airline, then you'd bloody well better make sure you have enough aircraft, crew, and facilities to run that airline. If you don't, things will go badly for you and you will get no sympathy from me. I understand it may be a low margin business, but nobody forced anyone to start an airline and it's not like the factors were not known well in advance. I get really tired of businesses running a shoestring operation and then crying when it bites them in the ass and expecting to put it all on someone else.

[CDS]

There are other ways to get crew members from point a to point B without throwing paying customers off the plane. If the airline needs to send them via car, train, bus, or air taxi, that's a cost of doing business. If you run an airline, then you'd bloody well better make sure you have enough aircraft, crew, and facilities to run that airline. If you don't, things will go badly for you and you will get no sympathy from me. I understand it may be a low margin business, but nobody forced anyone to start an airline and it's not like the factors were not known well in advance. I get really tired of businesses running a shoestring operation and then crying when it bites them in the ass and expecting to put it all on someone else.

Interesting post, Dale. Thank you.

Yes, the cost of deadheading crew members is well known and understood. And sometimes, for a variety of reasons - weather, maintenance, ATC, etc. - deadhead plans change. Have you completed ALL of your flights on time with NO delays for any reason? Of course not and so it is within the airline industry; it's a very complex effort and in my opinion, the industry has done a poor job of communicating that fact. Think of it this way - everything has to go right for a flight to operate on time, but only one problem is necessary to delay one.

[CDS]

CDS, please delete your posts. One of our employees needs the forum space.

? I don't understand your post - can you please elaborate?

[DaleB]

Interesting post, Dale. Thank you.

Yes, the cost of deadheading crew members is well known and understood. And sometimes, for a variety of reasons - weather, maintenance, ATC, etc. - deadhead plans change. Have you completed ALL of your flights on time with NO delays for any reason? Of course not and so it is within the airline industry; it's a very complex effort and in my opinion, the industry has done a poor job of communicating that fact. Think of it this way - everything has to go right for a flight to operate on time, but only one problem is necessary to delay one.

Yes. All true. And also immaterial. You run an airline, you know the risks and how to mitigate them. There are some pretty basic rules of business. One of them is, if you screw something up (and sometimes even if you don't) it's going to cost you money. Tough deal. Those are YOUR problems, not your customers'. The expenses of dealing with them are costs of doing business. You build that into your pricing. If you try to get too cheap or too clever it always comes back to bite you. Got yourself in a bind and need to move a crew, but your plane is all full of passengers that PAID you for your PROMISE to transport them? Hey, you're in the airline business. Find another plane, or swallow your corporate pride and put them on another carrier. Rent a car. Hire a taxi. Don't screw your customers and then try to pretend it's not your fault.

[cluttonfred]

? I don't understand your post - can you please elaborate?

Sir, if you don't delete your posts to make space in the forum for our employees, we'll have to call security and have you forcibly removed.

[martymayes]

Yes. All true. And also immaterial. You run an airline, you know the risks and how to mitigate them. There are some pretty basic rules of business. One of them is, if you screw something up (and sometimes even if you don't) it's going to cost you money. Tough deal. Those are YOUR problems, not your customers'. The expenses of dealing with them are costs of doing business. You build that into your pricing. If you try to get too cheap or too clever it always comes back to bite you. Got yourself in a bind and need to move a crew, but your plane is all full of passengers that PAID you for your PROMISE to transport them? Hey, you're in the airline business. Find another plane, or swallow your corporate pride and put them on another carrier. Rent a car. Hire a taxi. Don't screw your customers and then try to pretend it's not your fault.

So when weather causes delays and overwhelms the ATC system, forces unsustainable reroutes, causes delays of unknown duration, shuts down airports, this is all the airline's fault for not planning ahead? Air transportation has evolved from a service for the affluent to economical mass transit for everyone. Free market pricing has driven prices lower than it cost to drive ones own private car between city pairs and flying is safer! There has to be a profit in there somewhere or nobody will do it. Most people are surprised when they learn what the average markup is on an airline ticket. There is very, very little profit.

A travel is certainly free to buy his transportation through a luxurious charter operator if they want red carpet treatment. Forcing the airlines to provide steak and champagne for McDonalds prices is not very realistic in a "free" market.

[CDS]

Sir, if you don't delete your posts to make space in the forum for our employees, we'll have to call security and have you forcibly removed.

Ah, thank you, Fred. I'm not an employee of the airline that was involved. Am I still allowed to comment anyway?

[Floatsflyer]

So when weather causes delays and overwhelms the ATC system, forces unsustainable reroutes, causes delays of unknown duration, shuts down airports, this is all the airline's fault for not planning ahead?

Please don't deflect from the issue being discussed to make some kind of lame argument that is not relevant to the discussion. The point being made is what airlines do or don't do when it comes to taking full responsibility for circumstance behaviours they have absolute CONTROL over.

[CDS]

Yes. All true. And also immaterial. You run an airline, you know the risks and how to mitigate them. There are some pretty basic rules of business. One of them is, if you screw something up (and sometimes even if you don't) it's going to cost you money. Tough deal. Those are YOUR problems, not your customers'. The expenses of dealing with them are costs of doing business. You build that into your pricing. If you try to get too cheap or too clever it always comes back to bite you. Got yourself in a bind and need to move a crew, but your plane is all full of passengers that PAID you for your PROMISE to transport them? Hey, you're in the airline business. Find another plane, or swallow your corporate pride and put them on another carrier. Rent a car. Hire a taxi. Don't screw your customers and then try to pretend it's not your fault.

Again, thanks for the reply, Dale.

Unfortunately, voluntary and involuntary bumping of customers is commonplace - it happens every single day and it generally does not involve deadheading crew members. And that's one of the reasons I'd like to see overbooking end. But even in that case, due to delays (ATC, weather, maintenance, crew rest, etc.), over-bookings will still occur. And so passenger involuntary denied boardings can and will still occur. It's like renting a room to a tenant - if you have reason to ask the tenant to leave and that tenant then refuses to leave despite multiple requests, at what point do you call the police? Can you please answer that one question (it's not rhetorical).

Again, I don't agree with how the Chicago Department of Aviation Police handled the matter - it's upsetting to me, too.

Further, the "PROMISE" (your words) of air transportation is conditional; that is, it's not a guarantee (granted most people are too lazy or hurried to read the contract). For example, about a year ago, I was removed from a flight on a regional jet (on a paid ticket) as the forecast at the destination required an alternate airport. The fuel required to reach that alternate meant that two passengers had to be removed and I was one of those two.* Did I throw a childish tantrum? No, I got off the airplane and traveled on the next flight.

*Do you understand weight restrictions? At one time or another, it happens on all airlines (the 50 seat regional jets seems especially prone to them).