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Thread: AT-6 / SNJ spins

  1. #21

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    Simply said, the T-6 is placarded against spins because it does not meet the FAA requirement to recover in 3 turns hands off. That's part 23 coming into play when applying for a TCDS. I've had students and riders both muff up stalls and loops putting me in positions that I normally wouldn't go in to. It's a very honest spinner both inverted and upright. If its inverted it quickly returns to a normal spin (in about 3/4 turn) then its standard recovery (power, rudder and stick simultaneously, wait, and recover). The biggest issue I've seen is the engine sputtering a little at lower power settings due to it being a float carb.

  2. #22

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    Scott, do you know if any T-6, SNJ or Harvards are legal without the "no spin, placard? Perhaps one in experimental or limited category or race plane, or in Canada, or maybe grandfathered in? Can a CFI or check pilot legally teach or demonstrate spins in a 6?
    I flew my friend David Fain's T-6 at least once solo and several times dual, and I don't recall it having any such placard. His was ex South African AF, proved to be a good sound airplane. This has been more than 15 years ago, I may just not remember the details. I know that back in 1983-84 when I got my T-6 instrcution and sign off, we did not do any spins, but I don't recall any such placard then either.
    I recently talked to an experienced and well know veteran warbird pilot about his spin training when he was in the navy, He also said the 6 recovers just fine, but once in civilian life he accidently spun the 6 while simulated dogfighgting down low and scared himself pretty badly.
    The manual that I have strangley enough doesn't even mention power or power off in the spin recovery, it just says opposite rudder, then stick forward of neutral.
    Last edited by Bill Greenwood; 12-05-2011 at 05:02 PM.

  3. #23

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    Bill, I do know of one pilot that uses a T-6 in an aerobatic act including a roll on take off. The airplane is a normal category aircraft and is placarded "intentional spins prohibited" in both cockpits. The pilot does not know of any T-6 that doesn't have the spin restriction.

  4. #24

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    Bill,As far as I know if a T-6 is in normal category it is placarded against spins. As for experimental, since the manual says no intentional spins then it is still illegal. I've been told it is illegal to intentionally teach spins but I feel as a CFI that it is a necessity. Power off and high AOA it spins predictably and smoothly, it's when you have it loaded up, high power, high G, that that "snap stall characteristic" really shows its ugly face.

  5. #25

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    Scott. Thanks, the copy of the T=6 manual that I have , AN 01-60FFB-1 has NO PROHIBITION against spins, in fact it gives "normal spin entry", the modes, and how to recover( "vigorous full opposite rudder, followed by stick slightly forward of neutral" for normal spins or "slightly aft of neutral for inverted spins". Power is not mentioned, I guess it assumes that if you are doing a practice stall entry to a spin, it will be power off.
    There is certainly no anti spin placard in the photos of these panels either.
    It is obvious that these planes and manuals could not have had this prohibition when they were advanced military trainers, for U S and others and of course did many spins in training.
    I wonder if when the South African ones came into civilian use in the U S , likely when the FAA required that placard, if they also required some " no spin" page added to the manual. I will do a little more checking.

    In any event, the real danger in T-6 spins and recoveries, would be if the passenger was playing a word game on his I Pad.
    Scott, by the way, I am no acro expert. Have a basic card, but no expert, though I have flown with some who are among our best. One thing they have told me sometimes overlooked, that you might want to remember if you ever fall out of a loop or such and get in an emergency spin situation it that it is critical to get the POWER ALL THE WAY OFF, throttle closed. This is said to be very true for Pitts and P-51 , can't vouch for all others.
    And one thing Lefty Gardner told the man who taught me some of my basics was don't do hammerheads in a Mustang.

    If you haven't read FIRST LIGHT by Gepffrey Wellum, available in paper, you would find it informative and really enjoyable to read. It shows pretty well the excellent RAF training these guys got and that it was no accident that they were so good.
    I'd like to be that current, that well trained, maybe that young again, if I could leave out the parts about the 109 s on my tail. I can't imagine doing that a 18.
    Last edited by Bill Greenwood; 12-15-2011 at 11:28 AM.

  6. #26

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    The horse is dead.

    The FAA does not respect the manual that you cite. The FAA TCDS, now owned by Boeing as the result of corporate mergers and acquisition, requires a placard in both cockpits of the T-6 prohibiting intentional spins. That is FAA approved data. Its online for you to read. Normal Category T-6's are technically unairworthy if those placards are not in place. You choose to ignore the TCDS and the placards at the risk of losing your pilot certificate. That said, we all know that there are no FAA airplanes in the sky waiting to write a citation. But the NTSB report will cite that the pilot entered into a maneuver prohibited in the accident airplane and some insurance companies will take that into account when processing the claim submitted by the heirs.

    Fly safe.

    Wes

  7. #27

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    Wes., my last post was to Scott. And to put it politely, you are full of it when you write, "You choose to ignore the TCDS and the placards" . That is just wrong. I have never done a spin in a T-6, intentional or otherwise and you are absolutely false when you write something like that about me.I have never failed to install any such placard in any T-6 I owned, if I ever had owned one. Nor have I ignored any such placard, in the ones I flew.Nor have I had an accident in one. If you have some real evidence, how about presenting it?
    And much as it seems that you would like the me to lose my pilot certificate over this, is hasn't happened.
    As for "The horse is dead." comment by you, if you don't like this topic or any other of mine, you may certainly skip reading or commenting on them. I won't miss you.
    It is not up to you, fortunately to decide when someone else's topic "is dead".
    And you fly safe too, nice and level.
    Last edited by Bill Greenwood; 12-16-2011 at 09:04 AM.

  8. #28

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    Bill,Believe it or not it depends on the manual you read! In My manual collection I have a T-6F manual that approves spins but in the next revision it "advises" it. It's confusing. Either way, whoever originally applied for the type certificate didn't go through the spin quals for part 23. I see it's that way for just about every military trainer (T-34 T-28 etc). The military did spin training although out the T-6 lifespan so I wouldn't expect to see a placard there either. As for the comment on the mustang, I couldn't imagine doing a hammerhead in a 51! For one the rudder is too small to start with, plus the way a mustang spins I wouldn't want to!Blue skies Bill!

  9. #29

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    Sep 2011
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    T-6 spins

    I have done at least 50+ spins in the T-6.
    Some were done under the hood.
    Never had any problems.They taught us well in the
    aviation cadet program in 1950-51 !
    I don't know anything about the new regulations.

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