I copped no attitude my friend. But as the saying goes...It is the fool who believes doing the same thing will give one different results.Originally Posted by DaleB
I copped no attitude my friend. But as the saying goes...It is the fool who believes doing the same thing will give one different results.
Last edited by 1600vw; 02-27-2017 at 03:30 AM.
OK, so correct me if I'm wrong... are you just objecting to the fact that EAA does not allow chapters to operate flying clubs, or is there more that you think they (more properly "we", since we're all EAA members) should be doing?
On the subject of chapters operating flying clubs, how do you think that would help? There is certainly nothing stopping a group of like minded EAA members from starting a flying club. I'm not clear on how having EAA involved in some way would help. I would think that if a chapter were to operate a flying club, membership would have to be restricted to EAA members. I don't see that benefiting non-members, and simply expanding EAA membership isn't the goal here.
Measure twice, cut once...
scratch head, shrug, shim to fit.
Flying an RV-12. I am building a Fisher Celebrity, slowly.
"Then lets look at this cost of ownership. I was always under the impression that aviation was for the rich. I am not rich. I never had any idea about the lower end of aviation. Everyone said it would cost tens of thousands of dollars to fly. This is a myth and one of the biggest killers of aviation. We have an RC club here at my field, I spoke at one of the meetings about experimental airplanes and the cost. I told this group that 60% of them had more money in their rc gear and airplanes then I have in my experimental airplane. I heard people say that I had no idea what I was saying. If one wants to fly a p-51 or a 172 or how about a 747, now those cost a lot to own and operate. But a single seat eab is not that expensive to own and operate. This is one of the biggest turn-off to aviation. The next time someone asks about the cost of aviation don't just say, its expensive. Explain like anything else there is the low cost side of things. Not all airplanes cost tens of thousand of dollars. Some don't even cost 5 thousand dollars."
Tony makes a good point. It depends on what you want to fly and able to afford. On a community college teachers salary (now retired) no way I could afford a Bonanza so I bought a 1966 Cherokee 140, flew it for 25 years and actually made some money when I sold it. After I retired I started rebuilding tube and fabric aircraft. I broke about even on the first one and from there on I'm not sure money wise but it's a hobby, keeps me busy and my hand in aviation even though I don't fly as much as I used to (40 hours a year would be a lot). As I posted previously I would love to build a RV but it's strictly out of my price range not to mention more of a plane than I really need. More to the point I know folks that have more in their boats and/or motorcycle collection or a time share they hardly use than I do in my Champ. My wife of 52 years says "If it keeps you busy it's worth it". All in your perspective, I guess.
If God had intended man to fly He would have given us more money!
Marty,
I for one can attest to not having any extra money. Let me say I'm making more money now than I ever have but the costs of gas/aircraft/maintenance are higher now than ever. No I'm not retired yet but when I do, I certainly won't have any extra income to fly with. I think it is a bigger picture issue. I know my dad didn't make this much money before he retired in 1986, yet he was able to rent aircraft, put two boys through school. Buy a boat and an RV and find time to travel 130 miles each way to a lake for RVing/fishing/gas most weekends. Yes I make more but it doesn't seem to go as far.... This I think is the biggest issue.
C 172 Pilot
Mike Sundstrom
EAA 1019808
A chapter I was in received a donation, a cub type airplane. The donor's wish was to have the plane used in a flying club. Since a chapter can't operate a flying club, the plane was immediately sold before anyone could formulate a plan for a flying club with EAA members, not affiliated with the chapter. The value of using EAA is that a chapter brings like minded people together better than one could do from scratch. Not everyone joins because they are building a plane. Of course, to benefit the chapter the higher the sale price of the donated plane, the better. How could the plane be sold to benefit the members wanting a club vs the members wanting to raise cash for the chapter? The third party club has to buy it at market value. That's not helping.
Here's the kicker. Several years ago, an EAA employee flying club was formed at HQ. This was going to be the model for EAA chapter flying clubs. What happened? The silence is deafening. Did it work good for HQ but we're not going forward with chapter flying clubs?
Hey Marty- I'll put my 2 cents in here. I really enjoy pretty much every recreational category that you had data on and I think the answer comes down to time and money. Young people today who have the resources to fly don't have the time and those who have the time, don't have the money. I was talking to my Dad about this just the other day. He started flying in 1961 and he could rent a Beech 18 for 32 bucks an hour wet with instructor. Are you kidding!?! 32 bucks wet on a Beech 18 with the instructor!?!?! I couldn't believe that even if you factor in for today's absolutely bat sh$&& crazy inflation. He has all kinds of awesome stories about what was available to rent back in the day- brand new Mooneys, 180's on floats, T-34s you name it he flew it. Those opportunities just don't exist today or if they do the cost would be prohibitive. Bottom line is inflation, insurance requirements, incomes and job responsibilities have all worked very well to kill general aviation as we once knew it. The opportunities that used to be readily available have fallen off the planet and in many ways, this has done real damage to general aviation. I have a buddy who is a lawyer for a major international consulting firm. He's under 35, makes 200k a year. He would love to learn to fly, buy an airplane and fly to all the amazing destinations we take for granted. It's never going to happen for him though because for the income he gives up his time in nation wide travel. The demands that employers make today are way out of line in comparison to what was considered acceptable when my Dad was my age. Somewhere along the line I think we lost what was truly important as Americans. Time for our families, our selves, our passions and our communities. If you want time today, you completely sacrifice a good income and if want the money, you have no time to enjoy it. Flying takes time to master, more time to remain proficient and even more time to climb the aviation ladder. Among my friends who dream of flying, it's just too much. I love flying. Get up as much as I can. Love racing, boating, wake boarding, jet skiing and fishing. Spend as much time as I can at my cabin doing those things as well. Most young professionals my age tend to stick with one hobby that doesn't cost a lot and they really devote their extra time to it. Mountain biking, diving, paddle sports, travel and those kinds of things. Activities that don't break the bank but are really fun for them. They would love to fly but it's too time intensive and too expensive to fly an airplane that gives good performance. Sure you can go by an old 172 or something like that but to them when they look at the tech that's in their 45k dollar Audi and compare it to an ancient 172 for maybe the same money, they just don't get it. It makes zero sense. Back in the day it wasn't like that. Just the written today has many parts that don't apply to real world flying. I get in the cockpit, flight plan already filed, run my checklist program my GTN 750 and take off. I get excellent service from ATC all around the country and not once am I plotting a course on a calculating a wind triangle. A lot of what is on the test doesn't apply to the way a lot of us fly and I think if we gave students the option to select a modernized IFR track for example that might encourage more people to start and they would be safer for it. Another glimmer of hope for me is seeing experimentals like Raptor Aviation with their 130k raptor. Near stuff and if they can make it work, that would be a real game changer as well. Just some places to start.
And it's corollary to your point. It's not the money. There is something for everyone provided flying, owning, tinkering with airplanes is what they want to do. If somebody has made up their mind they won't fly unless the can have a Bonanza and they make $40k a yr, probably not going to happen without a lot of sacrifice.
I would say the perfect storm of events occurred in the '70's that made flying popular and we may never see that level of activity again. If that's the case, all I can say is I'm glad I got to experience that. There has certainly been a shift in cultural paradigm and today people are not that drawn to flying aircraft beyond simulations. In the virtual world you can go anywhere and do anything and never get off the couch.
Marty you hit the nail right on the head. This is why simulation should come to the EAA website that we are on right now and the point I am trying to make. This new generation love simulation. If we could draw in half of those new registered drone pilots the FAA is collecting registration fee's from to this site and lets say 1% became involved in aviation because of it, aviation in a whole will benefit. But to do nothing but what has been being done for the last decade or so, we all see this is not working. But those powers to be shut out this new generation by saying simulation is nothing but a game. If they would change their way of thinking to simulation is a tool for not only training but getting new people involved in aviation, all of aviation again would benefit.
But nothing will change until the way of thinking changes. It's a shame because I believe by the time the powers at be wake up it will be to late. Until then it's the same old as we have done year after year after year. Again how does that saying go....Time to change the way we look at aviation and how we can draw in new people. With these tools we have today because of technology this should be easy, if we would just give it a chance. But nope not going to happen. Why because we do not play games on this site. But we are all about training and learning and exactly what these new simulations are about, training and learning. Not playing a game. Nothing about these flying simulators we are talking about is a game. if you treat it as such you will get bored real fast with these simulators I speak of. Use them for training and practicing and you will not get bored. Try just flying around and treat it as a game. It gets old really fast.
Tony
Last edited by 1600vw; 02-28-2017 at 09:13 AM.
is there any evidence to suggest a simulator game will lead to flying real airplanes? Should EAA branch off into video gaming? Have an annual gathering called SimVenture? Nah, not seeing it.
I am a millennial or just outside of that. I have friends that range from 25 to 40. The one common theme throughout their interests is adventure. They seek adventure in all aspects of their lives. I can't think of anything that offers more adventure than aviation. The thing is though they demand technology, performance and value for their hard earned dollar and that's where general aviation really needs to change to attract new blood and maintain it. I mentioned the Raptor experimental that Pete Mueller is working on. If he can get that really going, I can see many of my peers being attracted to that in a big way. If I can buy a state of the art car or boat for 130k, I should be able to buy a state of the art airplane for the same. A cirrus shouldn't cost a million dollars for a single engine piston, but it does. If we can get back to reasonable and fair prices, we're going to see a huge influx in new people entering aviation. It's not that they don't want to. Everyone who looks skyward when they hear an airplane above wants to. We just have to make that dream feasible.
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