Cause of Miltary Dermo Crashes

[Gunslinger37]

As I posted two days ago, the F-16 Thunderbird accident was caused by a throttle problem. He had fuel in the tanks, which was removed before they loaded the airframe on a truck. This was the fourth F-16 loss due to throttle problems. The first, was in May 2008 at the Tonopah Test Range in Nevada, where the throttle stuck in afterburner (full power) position. The airplane eventually ran out of fuel and the pilot ejected.

NELLIS AFB, NV -- Engine failure (flame out) resulting from the failure of a throttle cable caused the crash of an F-16C/D short of the runway at Colorado Springs (Peterson AFB) on June 2, 2016. The pilot ejected from the aircraft and received minor injuries. No fatalities and no damage to personal property were reported. According to the Air Combat Command accident investigation board, the pilot retarded the throttle during the landing approach and descent prior to extending the landing gear. As the aircraft slowed he attempted to move the throttle forward but it was stuck in the idle position. At the same time the pilot observed the engine instruments indicated the engine had shut down.
Investigators determined that a fracture within the throttle cable assembly led to the failure of the component, preventing throttle input and loss of the aircraft. The EPU H-70 system auto activated. The pilot directed the aircraft toward an open area before ejecting.

[Bill Greenwood]

Gunslinger, thanks for your input and accident report If It Is, the official report, which just as many logical people said, does not have the cause as the plane running out of fuel.

Tom Bush, the official report, IF IT IS the one given above, doesn't fit conspiracy or negligence claims at all. Of course, you can ignore thisl cause of the accident and insist on a conspiracy one, but it doesnt hold much validity. And I understand the crux of your point as you write,but really if you dislike the Pres it doesn't equate to the F-16 running out of fuel and a big cover up conspiracy. I have seen on another site other views like yours, and at least one of them from an ex mil jet pilot.

And as for your experience in an F-18, no I am not a jet pilot, only had one short flight in a Soko. But I am pretty sure an F-18 has 2, twice as many engines as an F-16 and thus likely burns a lot more fuel, same for the larger F-14. And you are assuming they ran on the ground for 22 min of which I dont see any evidence of that, nor any reports of it. You are also assuming sometime flight at full power and even afterburner for which again there is no direct evidence that I know of.
And just as you didnt run out of fuel on your F-18 demo, most likley the F-16 Tbirds pilots are experienced enough not to run out of fuel with a big runway minutes away.

When this happened, it was reported soon that the plane had 800 lbs of fuel in tanks when on the ground.Newspaper says that is 200 mile range., and he was gear down and ready to land when the problem happened. Of course this could be part of the big lie conspiracy, and blame could be focused on the pilot, or Secret Service, or Pres. or all of them. Logically who would willingly want the plane to run our of fuel? Who would benefit , except maybe rumor sources?
Next cause might be hitting a bird, lot of big ones around. My friend in Co Springs is an retired F-16 crewman and says they have had bird strikes nearby. But he also says you could see feathers and smell the burning smell in the engine then.
Next cause would be something mechanical likley in the fuel system and that is exactly what this report says.
By the way, the prototype 16 also had engine shutdowns due to a computer throttle problem somewhat different than this one.

[TomBush]

Bill,

Yes, their engines were turning when their radios were on.

Yes, my fuel numbers are accurate.

Yes, AB gets used during takeoff and during the show - ESPECIALLY by the solos.

No, the total fuel burn between the F/A-18 and F-16 isn't that much different. For example: my full AB fuel flow at sea level in the Hornet was 1,200 lbs/min. The F-16's is 1,000 lbs/min. Depending on the variant of the Hornet you were flying (all legacy A - D models for me), you either had 16K or 18K thrust out of EACH engine in full AB, for a total thrust of either 32K or 36K lbs. The single F110 in the F-16 puts out 32K lbs. Hmmm. You don't get nuthin' for nuthin' in the real world, so I tell you this to highlight the fact that like-generation fighters that generate similar thrust are gonna' have fuel flows pretty darn close to one another. And they do! I've flown with and against the F-16 throughout my entire career, and know with certainty how their flight profile compares to mine, because we'd literally takeoff with each other, go out to the working area, do our thing, and return. If it was a pure 1 v 1 dogfight where we were both going to be in burner a lot, the F-16 would usually Bingo out first; him having started up with his full internal fuel of 7K, and me with 10.7K.

No, I'm not making a political statement against the President out of this. None whatsoever. What I am saying, however, is that the integrity of the mishap investigation most definitely gets compromised when the pilot and team involved are getting lauded by the CIC and the press within single-digit hours of the event, whereby the mishap investigation and knowledge of what truly happened is going to take a month or more to come out. Think about it: let's say they found the jet completely empty and determined it was actually a flameout. Short a set of very extenuating circumstances, the pilot(s) involved would normally face disciplinary or administrative sanctions. Happens every day in our military. In this particular case, however, the HMFIC declared the pilot a hero while the ejection seat was still smoking in the desert. For the investigating team to now come out and fire #6 and / or the lead would be to throw egg in the face of the CIC. Rather than do that and suffer all the fallout that goes with it, the investigators and / or the endorsing chain of the report could simply push the 'easy button' and blame it on something else.

I stand by my hypothesis. Might I be wrong? I certainly hope I am, TTYTT! My gut, reinforced by word on the street in the community that actually flies these things, however, tells me otherwise. . .

[Bill Greenwood]

Tom, did you read the accident report above provided by "Gunslinger" ?

IF this is the official accident report, ( I dont know but it says Nellis AFB on it) then the cause found is the break in the throttle system, and this report has taken over 3 months, like the Navy one. A mech check of the plane post flight would likely find this defect, as the report says. Do you think or claim this report is false? As for what if on the plane being empty of fuel, again that doesnt fit the facts of 800 lbs of fuel pumped out of the plane before being moved. The Gazette reporter told me he personally witnessed this. Do you claim that this info is also faked as part of a cover up?
And as for your fuel burn figures, they may be accurate, but all the other planes didnt run out of fuel. Also maybe not takeoff on Aft burner, long runway and the show was at the Acadamy not aiprort. Not much on the total, but I still dont see how you can be certain that the planes ran 22 min on the ground, not having been there. A radio can run off ground power or battery, doubt if it has to have the engine . Dont know what a HMFIC is but I think that whatever the accident cause, the pilot was congratulated because he kept the plane away from any houses and in good control before ejecting, as well as joy that he is ok. I think Sully and Stiles were congratulaed long before an accident report was finalized on his emergency.
As for your theory about fuel, how probable is it? How many times has a TBIRD F-16 run out of fuel in a demo, especially close a major airport? Maybe, but I cant recall one? And if the pilot was running out of fuel , would he make a radio call on that? Was there one? Do you really think a pilot would ignore a warning light of low fuel when he's got a big runway near?
"Word on the street" would have value from someone on the accident investiation team or plane crew, or it may just be gossip.

And I am not going to make any comments about AF vs Navy pilots, cant think of a good humorous one.

PS, I share your frustration on Y Eagle red tape, but for the kids, I think I will sometime go through it to fly them again., if there is a need.

[TomBush]

Bill,

What you read above was not an 'accident report,' it was a press release about the accident report. I'm a naval aviation safety school grad and investigated many accidents and wrote reports myself. Remember that 'easy button' I referred to? Throttle cable just happens to break coming out of the break? Sure, strange things happen at strange times sometimes, but. . .

With that, I'm not going to make any further comment on the matter.