Touring Motor Gliders / self launch gliders

[Tim]

[QUOTE=holger;8627]Thanks for pointing out the KR-1B, Tim. Maybe I'm misunderstanding your post, but you're not required to comply with JAR22 to register a power assisted, experimental glider in the US. There are even Challengers registered as motorgliders.

Holger[/QUOTE

I know that I've been told that for a certified motorglider JAR22 applies and that it is used for registration of experimental, amateur built motorgliders as well. I will be checking this out because I've been told by EAA that JAR22 applies. You may have given me the opportunity to build a plane I can really afford to build and use. Thanks

Tim

[Eric Witherspoon]

If you're worried about what can be a glider under U.S. experimental rules, check the FAA database for N328KF.

Photo I took of it, in case it's not familiar:
http://www.spoonworld.com/flying/nasm2005/nasm05_03.jpg

[holger]

I know that I've been told that for a certified motorglider JAR22 applies and that it is used for registration of experimental, amateur built motorgliders as well. I will be checking this out because I've been told by EAA that JAR22 applies. You may have given me the opportunity to build a plane I can really afford to build and use. Thanks

Tim

For experimentals, there is most definitely no requirement to comply with JAR22. It is very possible that you may be confronted with an FAA representative or other "professional" that will want you to comply with JAR22 - simply because he or she doesn't know the rules. It's on you then to lay them out and you'll get that glider classification.

Holger

[Tim]

I went through the 29 pages of Challangers on the FAA registry and found two registered as gliders one in Ca. without an engine and one in De. with an engine. The up side to that aircraft is that it must perform as advertised since there are a bunch of them. I understand want you are saying; do you have any direct experience dealing with the FAA in these types of situations? Thanks for your response, this conversation may help me and other builders trying to read the tea leaves of the FAA.

Tim

[holger]

I went through the 29 pages of Challangers on the FAA registry and found two registered as gliders one in Ca. without an engine and one in De. with an engine. The up side to that aircraft is that it must perform as advertised since there are a bunch of them. I understand want you are saying; do you have any direct experience dealing with the FAA in these types of situations? Thanks for your response, this conversation may help me and other builders trying to read the tea leaves of the FAA.

Tim

Hi Tim,

Personally, I have not registered an experimental glider. But I've dealt on long drawn-out certification issues with the FAA, during which I was handed from one FAA representative to another with varying and contradicting responses to my requests. The FARs are a complex set of rules and the FAA representatives are aware they can't know them all by heart. I've dug out FARs and sat down with an FAA inspector, and I got what I wanted. Most have been very friendly and helpful. So far I've been extremely lucky with the FAA.

It's not easy to find experimentals by type in the database. They need not be registered as "Challengers", for instance. The manufacturer is the main builder. The FAA therefore also doesn't give too much weight on the kit and its specs. It's the individual aircraft they are focused on. That said, if you come with examples of other experimental aircrafts that were classified as power assisted gliders and obviously don't meet JAR22, you shouldn't have too much trouble getting it for your plane also. Look for Monis. There are 15-20 or so that are gliders. I can connect you with an owner, if you like.

Holger

[Tim]

Hi Tim,

Personally, I have not registered an experimental glider. But I've dealt on long drawn-out certification issues with the FAA, during which I was handed from one FAA representative to another with varying and contradicting responses to my requests. The FARs are a complex set of rules and the FAA representatives are aware they can't know them all by heart. I've dug out FARs and sat down with an FAA inspector, and I got what I wanted. Most have been very friendly and helpful. So far I've been extremely lucky with the FAA.

It's not easy to find experimentals by type in the database. They need not be registered as "Challengers", for instance. The manufacturer is the main builder. The FAA therefore also doesn't give too much weight on the kit and its specs. It's the individual aircraft they are focused on. That said, if you come with examples of other experimental aircrafts that were classified as power assisted gliders and obviously don't meet JAR22, you shouldn't have too much trouble getting it for your plane also. Look for Monis. There are 15-20 or so that are gliders. I can connect you with an owner, if you like.

Holger

Thanks for the comments. I have written and called my local FAA to discuss this subject only to get the run around you discribe. The Monis are a good idea since most of them would not meet JAR22. Scary thing is that I seem to have to build the aircraft to get the FAA to take a look at it. This represents alot of resources and time for me.

Thanks again
Tim

[EuropaPete]

This one looks promising..... alot like the Carat.

http://www.hpaircraft.com/glidair/

Cheers,
Pete

[rampil]

Greetings,

I have some direct experience, since my EuropaXS is dual registered as an airplane or as a glider, self-launch.
My program letter explicitly states that with the short wings installed the a/c is an airplane with all the rights & privs assigned thereto.
When the long wings are installed, the a/c is a glider, self-launch.

I had to demonstrate "intent to glide" which I accomplished by 1) building a Europa which is designed to rapid wing transition, and 2)
installing a fully feathering Airmaster Prop controller. My DAR then wrote up the specific FAA language required in the Program letter.

My Europa also meets the MELs for IFR and for Night operations and so the program letter also specifies these as allowed operations in either mode of registration.

Not all DARs are knowledgable about these dual registration program letters. I had to work to find mine (basically a call to EAA ),
and it was unfortunate that a popular DAR in central florida, an area where many Europas are built, was one of the uneducated. Several
builders I know went with the local guy and got very limiting operating restrictions.

Good Luck!

[Tim]

Thank for the info. Does your aircraft meet JAR22 with the long wings? Could you send me our DAR's contact info?
Tim