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Thread: Young Eagles and Background Security Checks

  1. #341
    Quote Originally Posted by TomBush View Post
    So Mark, given that you seem to be uninterested in telling the membership what your involvement is with this new program, and the fact that you clap and bark like a Seal every time someone indicates they or their chapter will comply, I can only assume you to be one of its architects. You're trying to polish the turd just as hard and fast as you can, but it just won't develop a shine. . .

    Anyway, assuming the poll you started in that other thread has any scientific merit to it with only 84 respondents, it looks like you'll now only have about 21.83% of the people you used to have involved with the YE.

    Fail. Epic Fail. . .
    The poll is unscientific. Numerous people have posted to say that they are complying and continuing their Young Eagles programs, meaning if they took the poll would choose the first option. But, they don't seem to be taking the poll. My guess is that the "sour grapes" people are skewing the results, but it's hard to say. I personally hope EAA does not back down and keeps the background check program. I don't think it's out of line. Those who do not want to comply are free to stop flying Young Eagles. I am glad to see many people choosing to continue to fly kids via the EAA Young Eagles program.

  2. #342
    Byron J. Covey
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark van Wyk View Post
    . I personally hope EAA does not back down and keeps the background check program. I don't think it's out of line.
    Given a choice, I would prefer to see a pilot skill assessment rather than a background check.


    BJC

  3. #343
    tomkk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Byron J. Covey View Post
    Given a choice, I would prefer to see a pilot skill assessment rather than a background check.


    BJC
    I thought we already had one, it's called a BFR. Not saying that catches all the bad pilots but are you sure you want to advocate for more flight reviews?
    EAA #51411
    RV-12; First flight 06/10/2015

  4. #344
    Byron J. Covey
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomkk View Post
    I thought we already had one, it's called a BFR. Not saying that catches all the bad pilots but are you sure you want to advocate for more flight reviews?
    I would not let my granddaughter fly with someone that I did not know but who had completed a BFR within the past 24 months. Would you?


    BJC

  5. #345
    tomkk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Byron J. Covey View Post
    I would not let my granddaughter fly with someone that I did not know but who had completed a BFR within the past 24 months. Would you?


    BJC
    Probably not, but a lot of YE parents in that past apparently don't have that problem. And, if you were a YE parent, how would you determine that? How has the new program changed that situation?
    EAA #51411
    RV-12; First flight 06/10/2015

  6. #346
    Byron J. Covey
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomkk View Post
    Probably not, but a lot of YE parents in that past apparently don't have that problem. And, if you were a YE parent, how would you determine that? How has the new program changed that situation?
    As they say, "Ignorance is bliss."

    The new criteria has not changed that situation. My point is that the greater risk to the kids and the program may well be pilot skills. Just a comment about the YE program; not a proposal. I have quit flying YEs, but I will give rides to select people.


    BJC

  7. #347

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    Has anyone other than me noticed that the EAA has yet again made changes to the rules / information / explanations regarding the YE Youth Protection Policy and background checks?

    Of course, they didn't bother TELLING anyone that they had done so, they just quietly updated the web pages. Some of the changes are quite subtle...
    If their rules are going to be this fluid, being changed without prior notice and with mere days between iterations, perhaps EVERYONE should stand down from doing YE activities until the corporate gooks can get their act together.

    Here are screen grabs of the various web page creation statistics. Check the "date modified" entry for each.
    Attached Images Attached Images     

  8. #348
    Rick Rademacher's Avatar
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    Sad

    Quote Originally Posted by Copapilot View Post
    Well...

    I've been mostly lurking around this discussion, reading the opinions of others and waiting for logic to catch up to my emotional response.

    My initial reaction was that the EAA could wrap their new policy around a broken beer bottle and stuff it, broken end last, where the sun doesn't shine.

    After 10 days of careful consideration, I have calmed down, studied the policy carefully, and made the difficult decision to stop doing any YE flights after 01 May 2016. (FYI, I am just shy of having personally flown 500 flights. Maybe I can break 500 before May 1st.)

    I am glad that the EAA has seen fit to make providing the SSN optional, because that would have been the end of my YE flights, in and of itself.

    However, I find that it is impossible for me to reconcile my personal liability and flight safety policies with that of the new Youth Protection Policy, and I will not forego personal protection or flight safety to comply with arbitrary "kid safety" rules.

    1) Per Policy Statement 8.a.: " In some situations, a staff member or volunteer may need to assist the Youth participant. If possible, the staff member or volunteer should encourage the parent to be present and acknowledge that the touching might occur. These situations might include: helping a Youth climb into an airplane, assisting a Youth with buckling his or her seatbelt in an airplane, ..." My airplane uses a 4-point restraint system with integral airbags at each seat. It is nearly impossible for someone unfamiliar to get the buckle's latches secured and the belts snug, so I HAVE to do it myself, to insure proper security. It's not something I can entrust to another volunteer either, as I am the PIC. (See 14 CFR 91.3). In addition, I have a low-wing airplane. Small people who can't reach the step and hand-hold have to be assisted up onto the wing in order to get into the door. However, after two incidents where over-enthusiastic parents did thousands of dollars of damage to the plane, my policy is that no parent is allowed within 20 feet of my aircraft during loading and unloading. I am too busy paying attention to the safety of the kids and pre-flight ops to keep an eye on stupid, inconsiderate "helicopter parents". (One gouged a window with an SLR camera lens so deeply that the window cracked, requiring it to be replaced; another literally JUMPED up onto the wing to take a close-up picture after I closed the door and landed squarely on the flap, bending it and the actuator arm so severely that they had to be replaced. BTW, both walked off without so much as an "I'm sorry", much less an offer to pay for the damage). I'll certainly tell parents that I will be buckling their child's seatbelt, but I'm not going to invite them to be present, to the contrary I'm going to insist that they stay well AWAY from the plane. No exceptions.

    In addition, if I had my way, parents would not even be allowed outside on the ramp area during a rally. I have seen MANY close calls between parents inattentive of their surroundings that run around like squirrels vs spinning props / planes in motion.

    2) Per Policy Statement 8.b.: I can no longer take video or still photography of YE participants. I ALWAYS record both audio and video using time-keyed in-cockpit video cameras and voice recorders, from engine start to engine shut-down, for my own PERSONAL liability protection. I do not tell parents I am doing this, it's none of their business (my state has one-party wiretap laws, it's being recorded inside my personal conveyance, and it's not for commercial use, so it's legal). If parents were to complain about it, their kid would be out of my plane so fast they'd probably leave a smoke trail. I will not stop protecting myself just to suit the EAA's need for protection.

    3) Per Policy Statement 7.a.: No physical force or violence: Luckily it has only happened once in a decade, but I have had to use "violence" to physically shove a kid into his seat and HOLD HIM DOWN while I turned the plane around and taxied back to the ramp after he took off his seatbelt, climbed over the seat, and started wrestling with another kid over some (racial) insult they exchanged via headset during my run-up. ( I couldn't just shut down the plane and sit at the hold-short line of a towered airport, nor could I make the kid get out of the plane right there, we were in the secure area. My only options were to declare an emergency and call for the airport police or taxi back to the ramp. I chose the latter. ) THEN, His parent had the audacity to yell at me about aborting the flight. She didn't stop verbally abusing me until I threatened to call the Federal Marshall's Office and officially charge the kid with violating 14 CFR 91.11, 18 USC 32, and 49 USC 46504 ... AND THAT I HAD THE VIDEO EVIDENCE TO PROVE IT. I'd do it again in a heartbeat, yet it's against the new rules.....(but then, it might be covered under Policy Statement 9: "Discipline" -- but who makes that decision and do I get "blackballed" if some legal eagle who wasn't there decides I wasn't justified in my actions as PIC? - after all, no video allowed now (can you say Catch-22?).

    Lastly, I am a flight instructor. I occasionally violate Policy Statement 6: "...extend their relationship with any Youth to other activities" and "...communicate directly with Youth via telephone, email, social media or other means outside of EAA-related programs and events" because those young people and / or their parents call me to start formal flight training as a DIRECT RESULT of having participated in a Young Eagles flight with me. I see no logic in having to turn down an opportunity to instruct or having to route appointment times, weather discussions, ground school and pre-flight assignments, etc. through the parents of a 17-year-old just because I once gave him or her a Young Eagles ride. ( BTW, I now have received a legal opinion that I could sue the EAA for restraint of trade over this particular policy if they ever tried to enforce it against me, but it just isn't worth the time and hassle to worry about "ifs and buts".)

    So, in summary, I really like doing YE flights. I really enjoy seeing the joy on a kid's face and hearing it in their voice when he / she gets to actually fly my plane and then when they report that to mom or dad afterward. I think it's a great way to "give back" for my privilege to fly. I think it's a great way to encourage aviation as a career and to build bridges between aviators and the general public. But, as others have said before:

    It's MY plane,
    It's MY time,
    It's MY money,
    It's MY liability,
    It's MY responsibility.

    Therefore YE flights are on MY terms or NOT AT ALL. If my terms and the EAA's terms match then good, but if not then too bad. Life is too short to whine. The EAA loses. Period. I'm letting my wallet and my Wa [] speak. I won't let the door hit my ass on the way out. I'll find other avenues by which to encourage aviation in the community and young people population. Thank you for reading this.
    Having flown over 400 YE flights and many kids before the start of the YE program, I too am very sad to see these changes to a fine program. A large EAA chapter, who’s leaders I respect, are scrambling to address these changes in such a way that they can successfully proceed. As I now only fly a Piper Cub, I am also not sure how I will comply with all the new EAA YE mandates. I may just do my own thing as I did before the start of the EAA Young Eagles program. I will be sorry to leave if I must do so.

  9. #349

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    Quote Originally Posted by vaflier View Post
    Sure wish that was all there is to it Mike, unfortunately it is not that simple in todays world.
    We make today's world by accepting this kind of assault on our values. Come on folks. Do you all live in Madison Wisconsin or are you from Oshkosh?

  10. #350
    rwanttaja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Byron J. Covey View Post
    As they say, "Ignorance is bliss."
    Actually, a rather common misquote. The actual quotation is, "WHERE ignorance is bliss, 'tis folly to be wise." It doesn't claim that ignorance is actually bliss. Just that if you're in a situation where ignorance is rewarded, you might as well go with the flow.

    I think most parents of Young Eagles assume that their pilot is appropriately qualified. Most other situations where they turn transportation of their kids over to some other entity are the same way... how many times have you seen a parent check the license of a bus driver?

    Because it's so prevalent these days, I suspect many YE parents already assume the pilots/volunteers are screened, too.

    Ron Wanttaja

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