Scrapping the unneeded, unnecessary, undesirable, intrusive, insulting, impractical, unwanted, deleterious, damaging, and just plain BAD program is the only viable solution. There is no 'working out the kinks,' as the entire program is one big 'kink.'
I've now used my adjective quota for the day. . .
Please explain your math.Originally Posted by CraigCantwell
I assume your counting all the kids under 10 years old and assuming they're all there at the same time. That requires 6 trained volunteers. (2 for 10).
Are all the kids going to be there at the same time? Are all the volunteers going to work more than 4 hours or volunteer more than 4 times a year? If not, you don't need 6. Six can handle registration, marshalling, escort and other duties. 2 of those are the roving supervisors who can also do some escorting as part of their roving duties. What are the other 6-8 people doing and why are they required?
I contend that you could legally run a small rally with only 3 trained volunteers. Parents, scout leaders, etc. bring their kids to the airport and stay with them, supervising them until it's their turn to fly. One cleared volunteer accepts the completed registration form and hands the minor off to a cleared volunteer escort who is your roving supervisor. The escort walks across the ramp to the cleared pilot and assists getting the kid strapped into the plane. The registration person can see the escort walking across the ramp (2-deep leadership is intact) and the pilot and escort see what's going on at the plane (2-deep leadership.)
Sure only 3 would be extreme, but no more extreme than claiming 14 are needed. How about a little reality check, folks?
Last edited by dusterpilot; 01-31-2016 at 07:57 AM.
Ya' know what's also 'legal?' A pilot getting in an airplane with 'X' number of kid(s) in order to demonstrate to them the joy and wonder of flight. EAA / YE program not required. That is simply what it's going to be for most folks.
While your math is sound, your logic is flawed. There is no way to predict how many kids will show up for any given event. We get anywhere from 30 to 80 at our monthly events. How are we supposed to plan for that with a limited number of vetted volunteers? Do we close the door when we reach some arbitrary ratio?
The way these requirements are written, it makes one wonder if the authors have ever even attended a YE event.
Jeff Point
RV-6 and RLU-1 built & flying
Tech Counselor, Flight Advisor & President, EAA Chapter 18
Milwaukee, WI
"It All Started Here!"
Agreed. Typically unless this is part of a larger event like a fly-in, they typically all show up at the beginning and we churn through them as fast as we can. I can't see doing it with 3 ground volunteers. Typically we have two just doing the registration and paperwork alone, plus a few controlling access to the ramp/escorting to the planes.
Duster: Ours come in a group, and it's not a come and go event. 30 kids or more with an unknown under 13 years old requires 6 cleared just to deal with the kids. Now you need 2 roving supervisors. They are not allowed to do anything else per the policy. That's 8 people now. It will take 2 to handle all the paperwork, now 10 people. If we use any 4 seat aircraft, it's 2 people to get them to and from the plane and loaded so as to minimize our ground time. That's 12 right there. Due to the layout of the airport we use, that might not be enough people due to the amount of non YE traffic. It's possible that we would have to utilize parking airplanes completely out of direct sight of where the kids and the adults are. We get slammed too on the hours/times thing as we have several chapter members that are under 18. Until national actually says anything different and puts it in writing, you have to read the policy in worst case form. As it is, we are now less than 90 days from the implementation of the policy and there hasn't been a peep out of them yet, despite all the problems and concerns the membership has voiced.
I think many of you are reading far too much into the requirements.
Agree completely. EAA HQ leaders should be involved in this dialog, should be announcing changes (deletion of the SSN requirement was not announced...what other changes have we missed?), should be holding webinars, and lots of other proactive discussions. We have certainly lost confidence in their leadership!
"Two-deep leadership" and "staff-to-youth ratio" are two totally separate things, both included under the general topic of "Supervision." (If I'm not interpreting the policy correctly, EAA leadership should be here straightening out the misconceptions.)
"Staff-to-youth ratio" has nothing to do with training and background checks. It means you must have 2 adults for every 10 kids under 13. Those adults can be one-time volunteers. If I have a group coming together (a school class, scout group, club, etc.), I would expect some adults (parents, teachers, group leaders, etc.) to be driving the cars that got them there and I expect those adults to be providing some supervision of their group. If I meet them and explain the process, procedures, limitations, and restrictions to the adult leaders, I will count those adult leaders as part of my 2 for 10 staff-to-youth ratio. However, I fully expect to have other EAA members present to help them and those other members may, or may not, need to be trained depending on their frequency and duration of volunteer duty.
Not true! "Two-deep leadership," according to the policy, means that a minimum of 2 adults who have completed the EAA process will be in attendance as supervisors at all times. It does not say they are not allowed to do anything else. It simply says they must be "present and actively circulating through the areas." I can still help a parent fill out a form and escort some kids out to an aircraft as I am "actively circulating" around the area. I don't have to just stand and watch and do nothing.Now you need 2 roving supervisors. They are not allowed to do anything else per the policy.
I also don't see that it says anywhere that your two trained supervisors have to be the two same people only doing that all day. In fact, I interpret it to allow much flexibility. It even specifically says, "For chapter Young Eagles rallies" the supervisors "may include Young Eagles pilots on the ground." If I've got multiple pilots, as long as I have one of them on the ground meandering around between trips, I've got one of my two supervisors.
Why does it take 2 unless your taking them totally out of site of everyone else? You should be visible by the pilot at the aircraft and other people on the ramp. And, they don't have to be trained and cleared!If we use any 4 seat aircraft, it's 2 people to get them to and from the plane.
No I don't. We're supposed to be mature adults with common sense. If I'm smart enough to be pilot-in-command making life-or-death safety decisions, I should be able to interpret and implement a written policy without a lot of additional written guidance to interpret the written guidance. (Granted, it would be a whole lot simpler if they would have provided some examples and would be here involved in the discussions.)Until national actually says anything different and puts it in writing, you have to read the policy in worst case form.
After more thought, I'm convinced you could run a rally for 100 kids, with only 2 trained and cleared members (not including the pilots who must also be trained and cleared.) All the other volunteers could be people who are doing it less than 4 times a year and less than 4 hours at a time.
EAA STAFF, WHERE ARE YOU?
You are totally unaware of this, but what you have done here is to wonderfully expose all the evidence required to reinforce and support all the cogent arguments in favour of cancelling this new YE policy. You have proven just how unworkable, time consuming and how your mathematical and logistical nightmare scenario is just not worth the aggravation.
You have also proven how the policy is unweilding, unnecessary and overtly burdensome.
WHY do the organizers and planners have to go through these mathematical and logistical hoops. I'm pretty sure most of them are not math profs, logistical consultants and 'just in time' experts. The YE program is not Fedex or Amazon although EAA seems hell bent on aspiring to them. WHY indeed. No justification except perhaps early onset stupid.
YE participants are involved and active because it's fun and a labour of love. EAA and by extension your scenario takes out all the fun and only leaves laborious.
Duster: Section 4 (a) (i):
- “Attendance as supervisors” requires that the person must be present and actively circulating through the areas in which services are being provided, in order to monitor all activities for appropriate behavior.
The key words are "actively circulating through the areas" if they are doing any other task, then they are not actively circulating or observing. Their task is supervision and nothing else. If you are helping parents with paperwork, you are not supervising or circulating and not in observance of what is going on.
Where we do our events, there is very limited aircraft parking. We have to share it with the fueling area, the restaurant transient parking, auto parking, the junction of three taxiways and the entrance to the runway. We have had to park aircraft on the far side of the main taxiway due to space limitations and in some of those areas, it is completely out of sight of the meeting location due to the sheer number and size of aircraft. Taking multiple kids on the ramp while at the same time loading, unloading and being sure they are safely belted in takes more than one set of eyes outside the aircraft besides the pilot. 16-18 year olds, not as much watching is necessary.
The Staff to Youth ratio tells me that is the number required to deal with that number of kids, and nothing else. Every where I've ever been that has any type of staff/kid ratio policy, it has been the practice that the number is the requirement just to oversee the kids and that is their primary responsibility.
You may feel that the policy gives you lots of freedom, but I don't see it that way. I read and have to understand compliance orders and directives every day in my job. If you don't have written guidance giving you more latitude, then to protect yourself you had better adhere to the strictest interpretation, otherwise when there is a problem, he-said she-said is not going to be in your favor.
Like I said in post #317, I think you are reading too much into the requirements.
That's not what the policy says. "Supervision and nothing else" are YOUR words and YOUR interpretation, not EAA's.
I will readily agree that you can't be supervising if you are sitting at a table with your head in the paperwork. However, I firmly believe that I can occasionally escort a few kids to an airplane while I'm circulating, observing and supervising. Until HQ leadership comes out of their bunker and joins in the discussion and provides some additional clarity, we'll just have to agree to disagree.
Again, we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't believe there is any intent that staff/kid ratio policy implies the number of baby sitters required. To me, the staff-to-youth ratio suggests the number of volunteers who should be actively engaged with administration, operation, supervision, and all the other activities.Every where I've ever been that has any type of staff/kid ratio policy, it has been the practice that the number is the requirement just to oversee the kids and that is their primary responsibility.
Do you work for the FAA? (Sorry, I couldn't pass that one up!)I read and have to understand compliance orders and directives every day in my job. If you don't have written guidance giving you more latitude, then to protect yourself you had better adhere to the strictest interpretation.
Last edited by dusterpilot; 01-31-2016 at 01:02 PM.
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