Will ADS-B out be required for experimental aircraft?
Will ADS-B out be required for experimental aircraft?
Yes... ADS-B-Out will be required if you fly in:
- Class A, B, and C airspace.
- All airspace at and above 10,000 feet Mean Sea Level (MSL) over the 48 contiguous United States and the District of Columbia.
- Within 30 nautical miles of airports listed in 14 CFR §91.225 (Class B), from the surface up to 10,000 feet MSL.
- For Class E airspace over the Gulf of Mexico from the coastline of the United States out to 12 nautical miles, at and above 3,000 feet MSL.
By equipping with ADS-B out, you also get TIS-B (Traffic Information Service) which is also quite useful if you plan to travel in your Experimental Aircraft.
If you're building a low altitude puddle jumper and flying the local grass strips and small airports, then ADS-B-Out might very well be a waste of money for you.
As an example, I have it in my gofast travelling E-AB aircraft. But my SuperCub clone only has an ADS-B weather receiver that allows me to pick my way around the T'storms here in the summer. I rarely fly high enough in the SuperCub to mix with other aircraft outside of the traffic pattern, so for the most part, don't care about seeing traffic that's well above me.
-Cub Builder
Essentially the rules are pretty much the same as the transponder rules. If you fly places requiring a transponder, you'll need ADS-B out.
Only if you also equip the plane with some ADS-B in solution. What does travelling have to do with it. Most collision threats happen near the airport.Originally Posted by cub builder
I mentioned a traveling plane to contrast the types of flying that might be done by the SkyRaft since he didn't mention the type of plane or where he plans to fly, and the E-AB world encompasses all types. While I'm sure there are lots of exceptions, most folks that travel a lot in their planes end up in airspace that will eventually require ADS-B-Out, while if you do nothing but low altitude rural puddle jumping, odds are that you won't need or even have much use for it. When I started flying with ADS-B Out and receiving traffic information, I was shocked at how much traffic is out there that I was blissfully unaware of flying around me. I've also been mildly surprised at how much traffic passes near me that I would have otherwise never known about. I love having it in the traveling plane. But for the puddle jumping I do in my Cub, having traffic displayed on the GPS wouldn't be very beneficial to me.
The difference is that in my SC, I'm rarely even at pattern altitude, so 1. there usually isn't any traffic at my altitude, and 2. ADS-B reliability is pretty poor at low altitudes in more rural areas for a variety of reasons, although a dual channel receiver will at least get the UAT and 1090-ES traffic. The single channel receivers will only see UAT-Out traffic.
As you said, mid airs usually happen within 5 miles of the airport. But when you're close in, it's time to get your head outside to watch for traffic. Also, when you're at low altitude in the traffic pattern in more rural areas, ADS-B becomes relatively useless as the mode-C traffic isn't seen by radar, and often times at or below 1000', you also lose the ADS-B stations, so you aren't receiving traffic. Of course if you're near a major metropolitan areas, it all works, but ADS-B out will be required there anyway.
-Cub Builder
The whole point of ADS-B out is so that it works without the absolute reliance on ground based systems.
The best description of needing ADS-B is whether you could fly without a transponder today (with exception of the mode C veil requirements) the rules are the same.
You seem constantly confused over the requirements for ADS-B out (MANDATED) and what might be useful for ADS-B in (TIS and TAS).
ADS-B Out can be provided by either UAT or 1090-ES. The former is a transceiver that can also provide TIS-B and FIS-B, as well as ADS-B In. The latter is provided by a properly-equipped Mode S transponder and only privides ADS-B In and Out. TIS-B and FIS-B are broadcasts provided by FAA only on the UAT frequency. FIS-B takes the radar and ADS-B Out positions from other aircraft (both UAT and 1090-B) and provides them to you. FIS-B provides local weather.
I'm not confused about it, but since I use both the In and Out, I do tend to reference them together which may indeed be confusing. Sorry if anyone is still confused about what is mandated, vs what is a useful flight information tool. But to be clear, ADS-B-OUT is the only requirement, and will be required in the airspaces listed above in post #2. If you plan to fly in those airspaces, Jan 1 of 2020, you will be required to have ADSB-OUT. You may provide that either by Mode-S transponder with 1090-ES or UAT Out (978 MHZ). Either will require a high accuracy WAAS GPS as a position source.
Any type of ADS-B IN is merely a nicety provided by the ADS-B system, and in many ways, is badly broken. Previous ramblings on my part about TIS-B and FIS-B has to do with the way I used them operationally and should not be construed as part of the mandate. However, the point that was apparently missed by FlyingRon and probably poorly made by me is that without ADSB-Out, you don't get Traffic Information Service (TIS-B) broadcast from the ADS-B ground station, so at best, you are getting an incomplete picture of the traffic.
Now that's funny! Some vendors (one is the leading vendor for E-AB aircraft) only sell single channel ADS-B receivers that use 1090-ES Out, but only receive UAT. They can't even see a like equipped aircraft without a ground based ADS-B tower to retransmit the data.
Actually, I do agree with you. In an ideal world with 100% implementation and dual channel receivers for those of us that want to see traffic displayed in the cockpit (NOT MANDATED), it could be an awesome tool. Unfortunately, the reality lies somewhere in between. It should work well in major metropolitan areas where ADS-B Out will be required, but with a number of vendors selling single channel receivers, those with single channel receivers optionally choosing to use the TIS-B data will be heavily dependent on ground based stations for complete TIS-B data. Outside of areas where ADSB-Out will be required, for the foreseeable future there will be a significant amount of traffic with Mode-C with no ADS-B out, which makes both radar and ADS-B ground stations a requirement to display the traffic (operationally this is pretty flaky). And there will always be the non-electric Cubs, Champs, Taylorcraft, etc that you will have to find with your eyes.
-Cub Builder
Last edited by cub builder; 08-27-2015 at 04:26 PM.
It's not "funny." Just because you chose not to avail yourself of ADS-B in doesn't mean that others flying in the same airspace are as cavalier with their safety.
With nothing but profound respect, Ron, I'd say you're overstating things a bit.
Not having ADS-B isn't being cavalier with with the pilot's or other aircraft's safety. We don't really have a huge problem with mid-airs as it is. ADS-B is another tool to reduce it even further, which is a good thing.
The mandates for where it's required make sense, too; it's a good thing in busy airspace with mixed types of aircraft. But that's not where a lot of pilots fly.
Personally, I fly in low traffic areas at around 1-3,000 feet AGL puttering along at 55 MPH (IAS). The Champ has a transponder that might as well have the knobs safety wired to 1200. My Nieuport has no transponder at all. Am I being cavalier with my safety? Not at all. I just don't fly in areas where it's needed or would put a big difference in the safety calculations.
The opinions and statements of this poster are largely based on facts and portray a possible version of the actual events.
What makes you think a discrete code is necessary for traffic avoidance systems to work?
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