I made the pod and windshield easy to put on and take off. I will put it on if I have the weight, and I'm pretty sure I do. I weighed it at 249 in the last pics and the pod was 3.3 pounds with attachments. The streamlining will help a tiny bit, but the real reason for it is to make flying in the cold months more comfortable, to keep the wind off my feet, hands, and face/neck.
Last edited by Jazzenjohn; 06-10-2015 at 06:34 AM.
I'm reading this late in the thread and you already have the correct answer from the regs. One reason for confusion on this issue is some manufacturers of certificated aircraft publish weight and balance information in manuals intended for on-board use specifying full oil, some with empty oil. So some of us think it's included, some not, based on which certificated aircraft we've flown, when they were certificated, and under which rules. Going to the FAA reference documents for the specific one you're working with is ALWAYS the best answer.Originally Posted by Jazzenjohn
Looks like the question for the ultralight weight limit has been answered by the posted advisory. Drainable oil doesn't count.
But if you're ever asked what standard empty weight on certificated aircraft includes, the answer is no usable fuel plus full oil (and other fluids).
Looks great John! Keep us posted when it's getting close to flying.
(That blank white tail seems to me missing something....maybe a U.S. Post Office logo?)
That won't be my answer.
From AC43.13-1B, chapter 10, section 2 "Weighing Procedures".
When weighed with full oil, actual empty
weight equals the actual recorded weight less
the weight of the oil in the oil tank( oil weight
= oil capacity in gallons x 7.5 pounds). Indicate
on all weight and balance reports whether
weights include full oil or oil drained. (See figure
10-9.)
-Cub Builder
For a Part 23 aircraft, oil is included in the empty weight. ;-)
AC43.13-1B is written for those maintaining part 23 aircraft. Back in the CAR 23 days, the FAA recognized that aircraft couldn't fly without oil in the engine, so it was included as part of the empty weight. When the CAA became the FAA and CAR 23 became Part 23 under the FAA, the standard changed to not include oil in the empty weight. I would guess that was a change favored by manufacturers so they could tout a lower empty weight. So, your older plane certified under CAR 23, like a Cub or Champ should have the weight of the oil included as part of the empty weight. Newer aircraft certified under Part 23 don't include the oil as part of the empty weight.
That's the definitions as best I understand them. To me, a typical gasoline engine requires a sump full of oil, so the oil should be included in the empty weight. The plane I completed 18 years ago, I left the weight of the oil out of the empty weight. The two I have built since included the weight of the oil as it doesn't make sense to me to leave it out.
-Cub Builder
According to AC 43.13-1B chapter 10-2 Terminology, part b, the empty weight is calculated with residual fuel and oil also. The weighing procedures part from post #16 appears to me to just show an acceptable way to calculate weight and balance of oil and how to subtract it to get empty weight, instead of actually having to drain the oil and weigh the aircraft again.
Last edited by Jazzenjohn; 06-15-2015 at 03:21 PM.
Well, I don't know where to start but here goes. There is no CAR 23 certification rules. I think what you mean is CAR Part 3, which was the certification regs for light planes during CAB days. From the CAR Part 3, Subpart B regulations for "empty weight" (not "standard empty weight" or "basic empty weight" because those are not regulatory terms) it states:AC43.13-1B is written for those maintaining part 23 aircraft. Back in the CAR 23 days, the FAA recognized that aircraft couldn't fly without oil in the engine, so it was included as part of the empty weight. When the CAA became the FAA and CAR 23 became Part 23 under the FAA, the standard changed to not include oil in the empty weight. I would guess that was a change favored by manufacturers so they could tout a lower empty weight. So, your older plane certified under CAR 23, like a Cub or Champ should have the weight of the oil included as part of the empty weight. Newer aircraft certified under Part 23 don't include the oil as part of the empty weight.
That's the definitions as best I understand them. To me, a typical gasoline engine requires a sump full of oil, so the oil should be included in the empty weight. The plane I completed 18 years ago, I left the weight of the oil out of the empty weight. The two I have built since included the weight of the oil as it doesn't make sense to me to leave it out.
-Cub Builder
§ 3.73 Empty weight. The empty weight and corresponding center of gravity location shall include all fixed ballast, the unusable fuel supply (see § 3.437), undrainable oil, full engine coolant, and hydraulic fluid.
So that means no oil except residual oil.
Under Part 23, full oil is included in the empty weight. The applicable regulation is:
§23.29 Empty weight and corresponding center of gravity.
(a) The empty weight and corresponding center of gravity must be determined by weighing the airplane with—
(1) Fixed ballast;
(2) Unusable fuel determined under §23.959; and
(3) Full operating fluids, including—
(i) Oil;
(ii) Hydraulic fluid;
Hopefully we are in agreement now when oil is and is not included in empty weight.
In CAR 3 airplanes, manufacturers invented a term called "Basic Empty Weight" (or equivalent) which they published in the pilot handbook or owner manual to facilitate weight and balance computations for pilots. The BEW includes full engine oil, but don't confuse that with the FAA term "Aircraft Empty Weight." BEW is not a regulatory term.
The diagram you pasted above (#16) shows how to get "empty weight" when weighing the aircraft with full oil. They use a complicated mathematical operation called "subtraction" where the weight of the oil is subtracted from the scale weight to get empty weight. Empty weight is what goes on the Aircraft Weight and Balance Report.
Last edited by martymayes; 06-15-2015 at 07:31 PM.
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