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Thread: Ethanol in Fuel.

  1. #41

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    well, well, well. ignore engineers, environmental scientists, butterfly-counters and roughnecks. just ask the lawyers. why don't we increase efficiency and run the entire government that way? what? we DO? never mind.
    The wording in some of the regulations can be interpreted many different ways. I will be posting a white paper in the near future that explains the situation and the way we have interpreted it. Suffice it to say, as long as our process is followed, it will be considered non-hazardous.

    BTW, typical vodka is, by definition of the EPA, considered hazardous waste. Our waste effluent is less than half of the concentration. The low concentration is a big factor as to why it no longer considered hazardous.

    much more is affected than just the alcohol content +octane drop
    Please, share your sources of information as I am finding it difficult to come up with good reliable sources. Most anyone with credibility is very reluctant to discuss it because of the potential economic impacts it has on their company and/or the industry. Furthermore, none of those people will tell you the real truth for fear of a lawsuit. Every one of them will tell you the most conservative answer they can (which is "don't do it" in most cases). This is where real data comes in...it would be great to know what the truth is, but no one is willing to share...and for understandable reasons.

    A good example: I recently had an email discussion with a guy that has written a few articles for General Avication News, and he admitted that he is not in the industry, has never been and he has found exactly ONE source willing to discuss the topic with him, but nothing that relates to proprietary formulations or anything. He didn't have much basis for his writings other than what he has read online, and virtually no legitimate sources. Be careful what you read online or in magazines...anyone can write for those things!

    One thing I can tell you is that we have and are continuing to do a lot of testing using third party labs (we do not have the equipment in house...it is large and expensive, as was noted), and we are working to get backing from Arizona State University to have them do studies and provide information as to what the negative affects are of removing the ethanol, what it does to the fuel, and what the environmental/economic impacts may be. I will be posting those results as well, but some of those things are time consuming as you can imagine.

    Over the years I've probably heard every possible method people have tried toremove the alcohol from gas - And aside from the professional fuel purifyingcompanies who have access to chemicals and testing to certify fuel, all havecaused unnecessary damage to their engines by running the washed,"tainted" contaminated fuel.
    I would love to see your report on what people have done, how long it took for engine damage to occur, and what testing was done to correlate the damage to the fuel. Do you have a copy you could post on here or email to me?

    Thanks
    www.portablefuelsystems.com
    Makers of the Alcohol Separation System
    Use our A-S-S to fix your gas!

  2. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by teknosmurf View Post
    BTW, typical vodka is, by definition of the EPA, considered hazardous waste.
    i can second that! send it to me and i'll dispose of it safely for you.

  3. #43
    Holyize's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by teknosmurf View Post
    Ethanol can cause all kinds of heck, even in newer products. For example, just last year, I had to replace a fuel hose on my lawn mower because it was dry, brittle, and cracked. It may have been a coincidence, but it just so happened that Arizona started putting Ethanol in their summer gas as well as their winter gas that same year. If it was coincidence, it was amazingly timly!

    Some of the issues I know about with Ethanol are (and I learn more all the time):
    1) Some fiberglass reson is readily disolved by Ethanol. The first separator system we sold was to a guy who had an engine out because of this very reason. Also, some boats are affected by this.
    2) Some rubber will either swell or get dry and brittle in the presence of ethanol. I talked to one guy who was using ethanol fuel because his engine was rated for it, but came to his hangar one morning to no fuel in the tanks and fumes in the hangar...ethanol had ruined his fuel likes like my lawn mower...he felt lucky he didn't have a huge explosion when he opened the hangar door. BTW that rubber is found in carbs, fuel lines, and some fuel tanks/linings.
    3) Some tank sealers that some people use in their aircraft are disolved by ethanol.
    4) Alcohol is a cleaning agent, and can if you have any corrosion in your fuel system, it can make it flake off and clog carb jets and what not.
    5) Alcohol attracts water, and can therefore trap it against metal surfaces, causing them to corrode. This exacerbates the problems related to #4.
    There are more, but these are the "big hitters"

    As far as the argument that racers have been using ethanol exclusively for a long time. Yes, they have, but they also rebuild their engines a LOT more frequently!

    As a general rule, engines do not have issues with alcohol...it is usually the fuel delivery system that is the problem. So even for older cars, yes, they will make it across country fine, but they will likely need a carb rebuild more frequently. And if you want to continue to use original parts, you will continue to rebuild the carb. The antique auto industry continually deals with things like this. Some of them have even resorted to putting an inline fuel filter where there was none, just to help keep the affects of ethanol at bay.

    Anyway...I am sure all of this stuff can be found in other places...this is just kind of a summary...enjoy!
    Somebody please keep quoting this for every page. We need to share information like this.


    In addition, we also have to consider ethanol's effect to the environment. A lot of people are under the misconception that it's better for the environment because it produces less CO2 kg/l at 1.94. However, it produces more greenhouse gases than lead-free gasoline. Source: alcohol fuel
    Where there's no emotion, there's no motive for violence. -- Spock, "Dagger of the Mind", stardate 2715.1

  4. #44
    Aaron Novak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by teknosmurf View Post
    The wording in some of the regulations can be interpreted many different ways. I will be posting a white paper in the near future that explains the situation and the way we have interpreted it. Suffice it to say, as long as our process is followed, it will be considered non-hazardous.

    BTW, typical vodka is, by definition of the EPA, considered hazardous waste. Our waste effluent is less than half of the concentration. The low concentration is a big factor as to why it no longer considered hazardous.


    Please, share your sources of information as I am finding it difficult to come up with good reliable sources. Most anyone with credibility is very reluctant to discuss it because of the potential economic impacts it has on their company and/or the industry. Furthermore, none of those people will tell you the real truth for fear of a lawsuit. Every one of them will tell you the most conservative answer they can (which is "don't do it" in most cases). This is where real data comes in...it would be great to know what the truth is, but no one is willing to share...and for understandable reasons.

    A good example: I recently had an email discussion with a guy that has written a few articles for General Avication News, and he admitted that he is not in the industry, has never been and he has found exactly ONE source willing to discuss the topic with him, but nothing that relates to proprietary formulations or anything. He didn't have much basis for his writings other than what he has read online, and virtually no legitimate sources. Be careful what you read online or in magazines...anyone can write for those things!

    One thing I can tell you is that we have and are continuing to do a lot of testing using third party labs (we do not have the equipment in house...it is large and expensive, as was noted), and we are working to get backing from Arizona State University to have them do studies and provide information as to what the negative affects are of removing the ethanol, what it does to the fuel, and what the environmental/economic impacts may be. I will be posting those results as well, but some of those things are time consuming as you can imagine.


    I would love to see your report on what people have done, how long it took for engine damage to occur, and what testing was done to correlate the damage to the fuel. Do you have a copy you could post on here or email to me?

    Thanks
    As someone that works in the engine design industry, I can tell you that it is common knowledge in that field that the removel of alcohol from the fuel will lead to other issues. Its just not that simple. Thanks to political powers and lawyers though, much information about ethanol in general is locked up tight. The problem is not the ethanol in many cases, but the fact that its blended. Honestly it would be more straightforward to run E99 as all the materials in the fuel system could be selected for that. Unfortunately petroleum and alcohols get along with different materials, and few materials like both. E10 is about about the limit that most petrol friendly materials handle, E15 is a disaster. Unfortunately the use of higher levels of ethanol allows the fuel companies to do 2 things for themselves. One is to sell more government funded fuels at a higher profit, and the other is the ability to use lower (cheaper) grades of petroleum fuels to blend with it since the higher E content jacks the octane value up. A 93 E0 pump gas can have completely different petroleum base stocks than an E10 93 octane. Honestly trying to remove the ethanol from pump fuel and run it is a gamble, and not one in anyones favor.

  5. #45

    Why have consumers tolerated non-availability of E0 for so long????

    Skimming through these posts today, reading the same type of comments I've read in hundreds of other forums/blogs over and over, for so many years, leaves me with no other option than to give-up trying to motivate the public to take action to reclaim their right to buy E0 ethanol-free fuel...
    First, I need to remove (E0 Fuel Choice) petition from our site (obviously I'm just been wasting my time) -

    http://www.fuel-testers.com/fuel_choice_petition.html
    The details, petitioners included in their responses, 100% supports that E0 MUST be protected and easily available for all...


    I wonder how many here have signed our petition (on-line for over a year) or did something to get involved to reclaim availability of E0 in their neighborhoods???
    (I understand you may not be aware of who I am or our site or petition, especially since we don't do any paid advertising anywhere, but you get the point I'm trying to make today).


    Why have you (consumers), especially airplane/marine/classic car and other specialty engine owners,
    tolerated the non-availability of ethanol-free fuel in recent years??????
    Over the past 5+ years, as the ethanol producers & organizations have manipulated your legislators (and especially the EPA aka "Ethanol Promotion/Politics Agency" - sarcasm) most have stood by and done absolutely NOTHING...


    1. No laws exist that prevent sale of E0...
    Don't come-back and give me nonsense about the handful of "mandatory E10 blending states", since even those states have exemptions for aircraft, marine, small gas-powered equipment, etc...


    2. Your right to buy E0 has been taken away primarily because of political manipulation and greed,
    (desire to increase profits any way they can, by isolated industries, with the foolish/blind support of our government).


    - The only exception to this may be the limited areas that fall under the "Clean Air Act" (pollution control) who chose to replace MTBE (when banned) with ethanol for oxygenation requirements, over the past 5+ years.

    - - Instead consumers (the voting public of a so-called democratic society) waste their time doing ridiculous (useless) things such as, spreading false information on ethanol as a fuel and E10.

    Examples:


    - Posting, (again ridiculous), unsafe methods to remove ethanol from gas;
    - Promote some so-called miracle gas additive product, with false claims that it will fix all contaminated fuel and ethanol-caused problems (does not exist);
    - Endlessly reading and writing posts on specific damage caused by E-10, when probably over 90% of the time the problem/damage was preventable and avoidable;
    (Almost always the damage was NOT due to good/fresh E10 gas, but rather E10 that was contaminated, over-blended above 10% or water-contaminated and phase separated... Still don't get it, I'll explain further:
    When gas phase separates most of ethanol drops to the bottom of the tank, running this fuel,
    now with somewhere between 60-95% alcohol mixed with water will cause damage,
    but blaming E10 (10% ethanol) is inaccurate and not the truth...

    Wouldn't it be easier to just buy E0 instead?


    I would like to add MANY more examples since I'm fed-up with listening to the same ridiculous/misleading stories over and over, but this post would be far too long.

    As for generous people like Sam Hokin, the owner of pure-gas.org who have tried to provide assistance for those who require ethanol-free fuel, I'm sure he too, like me, sometimes wonders why he started educating and assisting strangers to protect their engines and pocketbooks regarding ethanol in gas?
    Keep in mind that the reality is, it is impossible to publish an accurate list of E0 stations,
    (posted by anonymous people) since stations change daily, and all too often mistakes are made (E10 delivered to a E0 tank/pump), etc.
    Details on Sam who is "a BMW motorcycle rider, programmer, math and physics teacher, and co-owner of IMS, an Internet application company in Madison, Wisconsin" can be found here: http://www.pure-gas.org/about

    The fact that a lay person, (not in the petroleum or ethanol industry), started that site in 2009, and none of you seem to believe or demand that INSTEAD the gas companies and retailers and government should be required to assure availability of E0 and clearly label E0 pumps,
    proves my point that after this many years, I must conclude that fairness and common sense in the gas/ethanol industry will never occur and
    "our government is only as stupid as the voters allow them to be"
    ...

    Basic science supports ethanol (E10) is often an inappropriate gas type:
    Ethanol/alcohol absorbs water (oil and water do not mix), is a strong solvent and drying agent, has lower BTU energy than petroleum, and more...

    If even 1/10 of the population spoke out against ethanol in gas (and all the scams that have resulted from the now primary gas type sold, E10), I'm certain E0 fuel would return to your local stations (as a choice).

    The unnecessary dangers and expense associated with lack of E0 fuel is unacceptable to me,
    and I believe it should be for most of you too, whether or not you personally own an engine that the MANUFACTURER recommends or advises for use of alcohol-free gasoline.

    Good Luck, and I hope a few more of you restore my confidence in the intelligence of U.S. public/consumers and engine owners...
    We are not (yet) a socialist society where the government has the right to tell us what to buy and/or force us to use/buy products that we do not want, especially when they may cause us unnecessary harm or expense.
    (I've heard far too many stories from pilots who attributed engine failure when flying to alcohol and excess water absorption in fuel tank).

    P.S. If anyone would like to take over responsibility of our "E0 Fuel Choice Petition", please contact me (Gail) at (678) 935-1998 or fuel.testers@yahoo.com
    I strongly believe that consumers MUST demand choice to the most appropriate fuel type for their engines, for so many reasons...
    And, for aircraft, my personal and professional opinion is that alcohol-free fuel is the MOST appropriate, safest and most cost effective fuel type, (whether or not Rotax in recent years has approved E5 for their newest models)...

  6. #46

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    In the posting above, #4 says that alcohol in the fuel can "clog" your "whatnot"!
    I am not sure if I have a what not on my old BMW, or my Son's new one, my other Son's Subaru, or any of the 4 Mercedes that I drive at times, much less on any of my airplanes.
    I have never knowingly seen such a thing as a "whatnot", nor read about it in any pilot or maintenance manuals, and I didn't learn anything about it when I went through A F mechanic school, but that was a long time ago.
    Maybe it is best that I don't know where to look to find such a "whatnot", because if I did look at it I might find it cloged and don't need that to worry about.

  7. #47

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    It is nothing more than another farm subsidy to the big farmers. As I understand it you use more energy to produce it than you get out of it and in addition 2 gallons of water for every gallon of ethanol produced. This is nasty stuff and should be outlawed. It is very corrosive to aluminum in the presence of any moisture.

  8. #48
    Jim Heffelfinger's Avatar
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    The performance power boat industry has solved the E10 problem.... they are openly suggesting 100LL from the airport.

  9. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher12 View Post
    Hi dear i want to ask a question that is this true that there are rubber gaskets used in the carborators of small engines..such as leaf blowers and strimmers ?
    Yes - and unfortunately the gaskets are not only used in static situations. Many engines now have little super-cheap fuel pumps that are part of the carb assembly. These "fuel pumps" are nothing more than a diaphragm of gasket material which has one side exposed to the fluctuating intake manifold, and the other side exposed to a couple of small one-way valves and a tiny fuel reservoir. The two small one way "valves" are an extension of a carb gasket and consist of only two tiny flexing flaps to keep the reservoir pumped full.

    The reason this is done is to allow the fuel tank to be slightly below the carb venturi, and to give a constant fuel height reference to the fuel metering system and reduce mixture variations with changing tank fuel level. This is all done to minimize the expense of a float bowl etc.

    The problem is these tiny flaps get all warped when exposed to E10 (or whatever) and then don't seal properly. The engine then won't keep running since that internal reservoir is never refilled.

    BTDT - a couple of times
    Last edited by nrpetersen; 11-27-2013 at 07:46 PM.

  10. #50

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    I have been running 10% ethanol mogas in Rotax 912 with high comp pistons for 600 hrs in Pulsar and no issues with engine or carb components. I do use auto fuel hoses which are resistant to ethanol degradation. My tanks are integral to composite glass structure and coated it with Jeffco 9700 novolac to keep glass from degrading and all is well after 9 yrs continuous mogas exposure. Would prefer a non-ethanol fuel because of higher BTU levels but unavailable in Calif so I fly with the 10% version from Death Valley at -210' to over 12,000' and no issues.

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