Ethanol in Fuel.

[fuel-testers]

Once youremove the ethanol from the fuel it is no longer technically 4815 compliant,mainly because of the oxygenate levels have dropped back down (this makes sensebecause the ethanol is the oxygenate...used to help reduce polution), andtherefore not technically allowed in STC'd aircraft. However, as you mentioned,Experimantals are no problem, and as a matter of fact, I whole heartedlybelieve it works better in my experimental Davis than AVGAS.
In answer to the disposal question. PortableFuelSystems can only officially sayat this point to "dispose of it responsibly and in accordance with localregulations".
However, we are actively working with lawyers to define what the federallyexpected method is...

Gasoline contains hundreds of ingredients - When you remove alcohol and/orwater from E10 type fuel much more is affected than just the alcohol content +octane drop -
Never ASS-ume!
Without laboratory grade testingequipment you would be unable to confirm (after alcohol removed) that gas issafe for use.

Take a look at the very advanced fuel filtration/purifying equipment used bygas retailers (cost well above 500K), and you'll soon realize it's not thatsimple with E10.
Over the years I've probably heard every possible method people have tried toremove the alcohol from gas - And aside from the professional fuel purifyingcompanies who have access to chemicals and testing to certify fuel, all havecaused unnecessary damage to their engines by running the washed,"tainted" contaminated fuel.

Gasoline quality standards, ASTM methods & SAE industry Standards are muchmore extensive than 4815....EG. See list at http://www.intertek.com/petroleum/testing/gasoline/or http://wetestit.com/gasoline.htm
Show me the test results for all required quality testing parameters, than wecould determine if the "Alcohol SeparationSystem" is not just another ethanol scam like "Mr.Funnel", "AquaSocks" and the zillion useless gas additives thathave popped-up since widespread transition to E10.

[Dana]

I was in my local hardware store today, and saw they're selling ethanol free 94 octane gasoline in cans... for $119 for a 5 gallon can! ($23.80/gallon!) The store owner told me he's selling a lot of it, not so much for general use as for a last fillup and flush before storing a machine for the winter (I use avgas for that before storing my plane for the winter).

[fuel-testers]

I'm going to write a summary to address several posts in this thread (instead of including quotes for each):

UTAH: Laws related to ethanol can be found at http://www.rules.utah.gov/publicat/c...070-940.htm#T3
See rule: R70-940-3.Labels.All motor fuel kept, offered or exposed for sale or sold containing at least one percent by volume ethanol must be labeled in a prominent, conspicuous manner," "This fuel contains up to 10% ETHANOL".

California: No longer requires pump labeling (long time). I confirmed again last month Nov. 2011, with Allan Morrison from CDFA, Supervising Chemist, Fuelsand Lubricants Laboratory,Petroleum Products Program,Division of MeasurementStandards, California Department of Food & Agriculture. All public gas sold contains ethanol- The amount varies anywhere between 2% (required) up to 10%, so probably worth testing percent with fuel-tester if you want to find stations with the lowest amount...(ACE, American Coalition for Ethanol still incorrectly lists California (STATUS REPORT) as requiring E10 pump labels -They do not.
Check ethanol-free station locations from Clear Gas - (New) California distributor of ethanol-free fuel (marine and aviation). http://cleargas.co/

Oregon: New interactive map for Premium 91 Octane ethanol-free stations: http://www.oregon.gov/OSMB/news/E10.shtml
They require pump labeling for over 1.5%; In 2009 they passed law to allow sale of premium ethanol-free (mostly for boaters).

We have other resources listed on our fueltestkit website on page titled: find_ethanol_free_gasoline

We also sell alcohol fuel test kits (AFTK), similar to EEA, and EEA also offers their test kits with our quik-check™ indicator solution (QCS instantly reveals presence of alcohol).

Their review of QCS, awhile ago, here: http://www.eaa.org/sportaviationmag/...quik_check.asp

If you need labeling laws for any other state, just ask.
There have been changes in a bunch of states in recent years - probably doesn't really matter since about 95% of all public gas sold now contains ethanol. And nobody really closely monitors the pumps for labels, so testing gas is the only way you can be sure fuel is ethanol-free, even in the states that require pump labeling.

Hope this helps- Good Luck!
Gail, Fuel-Testers Company

[nrpetersen]

Check your fuel sources even if they say they have ethanol free fuel. A local FBO (Northern WI) received a load of premium gasoline. A few weeks later my hangar mate's Cessna 140 (on wheels) swelled the inside of his fuel line. His engine stumbled on takeoff from Sky Harbor at the Duluth Lake Superior waterfront. I checked his fuel when he got home & found it to contain about 5 percent alcohol. I then called the FBOs where he had been refueling lately.

One FBO called back a few days later admitting that on checking, their fuel was contaminated and that their bulk truck had delivered the wrong fuel even though it was a certified load!.

The FBO then went thru their credit card receipts to try to contact everyone that had refueled from that batch but incredibly the credit card companies wouldn't release the names of the bad gas purchaser (security you know,,,,). There were 12 purchases they were unable to contact.

From that I'd say to verify that someone has checked each load for alcohol.

[fuel-testers]

Check your fuel sources even if they say they have ethanol free fuel. A local FBO (Northern WI) received a load of premium gasoline. A few weeks later my hangar mate's Cessna 140 (on wheels) swelled the inside of his fuel line. His engine stumbled on takeoff from Sky Harbor at the Duluth Lake Superior waterfront. I checked his fuel when he got home & found it to contain about 5 percent alcohol. I then called the FBOs where he had been refueling lately.

One FBO called back a few days later admitting that on checking, their fuel was contaminated and that their bulk truck had delivered the wrong fuel even though it was a certified load!.

The FBO then went thru their credit card receipts to try to contact everyone that had refueled from that batch but incredibly the credit card companies wouldn't release the names of the bad gas purchaser (security you know,,,,). There were 12 purchases they were unable to contact.

From that I'd say to verify that someone has checked each load for alcohol.

Oversight of quality of fuel sold? At best most states only require once a year certification and majority don't even require testing for alcohol- usually just octane and other parameters.

For years, everyday we receive reports of (ethanol in gas) mis-labeled, mis-blended, over blended and other incorrect fuel deliveries or fuel contamination -And we're not even a reporting agency! (We are an ethanol educator, advocate and sell alcohol fuel test kits)-

I thought by now all pilots owned a fuel tester to check for alcohol (?)- The model we (and EAA) sell was designed by an aircraft engineer probably close to 10 years ago- It's reusable and costs less than $10.
We include the tester in our gas test kits - looks like a test tube with permanent raised markings in 5% increments from 0 to 30%, made from alcohol resistant hard plastic.

If you're not using the tester, you should at least test with Quik-Check Solution (available only from Fuel-Testers and EAA)-
QC Indicator solution is very concentrated, just add 1 drop to fuel sample, agitate-shake it up.
Negative: No alcohol, fuel color won't change. Positive for alcohol: Sample will turn a bright Caribbean BLUE color. QCS will also read positive if fuel contains any water.
Available in 6ml (180 drops), 15ml (450 drops) and other dropper bottle sizes.
Only need 1 drop per test -Based on $10.75 cost of 15ml bottle size, cost per test= about 2 cents.

Let me know if I'm allowed to add a coupon code or link here, for free shipping or something, for those that want to try quik-check.

[Mike M]

Why do plane engines or at least some of the new ones like Rotax seem so sensitive to ethanol?
I have never heard of anyone having any problems with their car from ethanol in fuel, you can just go to the gas station and fill up with whatever is in the pump, as long as the octane is sufficient. Even that seems flexible as you can use a lower octane, certainly 87, even 85 might do, unless you are driving a Ferrari or some such high power car.Most any car, no matter what brand car gas or where the station is or what state works ok.

modern ground vehicles with electronic fuel injection for each cylinder and electronic ignition for each spark plug and oxygen sensors and engine control modules have CONSTANTLY VARYING MIXTURE AND TIMING to handle various fuels. after the engine is warmed up, the computer monitors the exhaust stream and can change the fuel flow without changing carb jets because there is no carb, vary the timing electrically with no need to rotate a distributor (or magneto). it's not just "pour it in and see what works, Bubba" it is science and technology in action.

[Mike M]

Honestly, we expect the lawyers may come back and say that it is dilluted enough to just let it evaporate, but we will see what the final response is.

well, well, well. ignore engineers, environmental scientists, butterfly-counters and roughnecks. just ask the lawyers. why don't we increase efficiency and run the entire government that way? what? we DO? never mind.

[Dana]

modern ground vehicles with electronic fuel injection for each cylinder and electronic ignition for each spark plug and oxygen sensors and engine control modules have CONSTANTLY VARYING MIXTURE AND TIMING to handle various fuels...

That's only one part of the picture. Older engines (cars as well as aircraft) typically have seals and other rubber parts that are not compatible with alcohol... that's the real big problem. Water absorption is another. Electronic engine controls would alleviate fuel mixture issues (a big issue on 2-strokes), but not seal or water absorption. Water absorption is less of an issue for cars that are driven frequently than it is for aircraft which typically sit for longer periods.

I suspect that if it weren't for issues with rubber parts, older style aircraft engines, especially lower compression ones originally designed for 73 or 87 octane, would run just fine on gasohol. Just watch the shellac on the fuel gauge cork!

[Bill Greenwood]

I have never once heard or read or any car, no matter the age having trouble because of using gas with some ethanol in it. My 76 BMW doesn't have fuel injection or electronic sensors , it is just a plain 4 cylinder car engine with a distributor, and it runs just fine on whatever fuel is sold at the service station, same as all the other MB we had and my 91 does.

Do fuel companies deliver avagas with ethanol in them by mistake? Well, if it has happened I think it would be very rare indeed. NR , I would really like to get the name and phone number of the fBO that you say had the contaminated fuel? How about it?
And I have no financial stake in this matter. I am not selling Ultrallights or LSA s or Rotax engines, nor am I selling fuel or quickcheck things to check the fuel.

[nrpetersen]

PM Sent. Many of us have had trouble with small engines running on E-10 too.