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Thread: Ethanol in Fuel.

  1. #21

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    Ethanol can cause all kinds of heck, even in newer products. For example, just last year, I had to replace a fuel hose on my lawn mower because it was dry, brittle, and cracked. It may have been a coincidence, but it just so happened that Arizona started putting Ethanol in their summer gas as well as their winter gas that same year. If it was coincidence, it was amazingly timly!

    Some of the issues I know about with Ethanol are (and I learn more all the time):
    1) Some fiberglass reson is readily disolved by Ethanol. The first separator system we sold was to a guy who had an engine out because of this very reason. Also, some boats are affected by this.
    2) Some rubber will either swell or get dry and brittle in the presence of ethanol. I talked to one guy who was using ethanol fuel because his engine was rated for it, but came to his hangar one morning to no fuel in the tanks and fumes in the hangar...ethanol had ruined his fuel likes like my lawn mower...he felt lucky he didn't have a huge explosion when he opened the hangar door. BTW that rubber is found in carbs, fuel lines, and some fuel tanks/linings.
    3) Some tank sealers that some people use in their aircraft are disolved by ethanol.
    4) Alcohol is a cleaning agent, and can if you have any corrosion in your fuel system, it can make it flake off and clog carb jets and what not.
    5) Alcohol attracts water, and can therefore trap it against metal surfaces, causing them to corrode. This exacerbates the problems related to #4.
    There are more, but these are the "big hitters"

    As far as the argument that racers have been using ethanol exclusively for a long time. Yes, they have, but they also rebuild their engines a LOT more frequently!

    As a general rule, engines do not have issues with alcohol...it is usually the fuel delivery system that is the problem. So even for older cars, yes, they will make it across country fine, but they will likely need a carb rebuild more frequently. And if you want to continue to use original parts, you will continue to rebuild the carb. The antique auto industry continually deals with things like this. Some of them have even resorted to putting an inline fuel filter where there was none, just to help keep the affects of ethanol at bay.

    Anyway...I am sure all of this stuff can be found in other places...this is just kind of a summary...enjoy!
    www.portablefuelsystems.com
    Makers of the Alcohol Separation System
    Use our A-S-S to fix your gas!

  2. #22
    flyunleaded's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by teknosmurf View Post
    Independent Lab Tests for Ethanol: Before 9.8%, after <0.1%
    Independent Lab Tests for Octane: Before 90.8, after 89.5

    > ...
    OK, but did you completely test the sample to see if it was still ASTM D4814 compliant? You cannot use "washed" gasoline with an STC, only in a homebuilt, and I would love to see the gas tank label on your airplane that describes such fuel.

  3. #23
    Dana's Avatar
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    Depending on the plane, it might not be a problem... the TC for my 1941 T-Craft, for example, only specified "73 octane minimum".

    But how do you dispose of with the mixed water and alcohol after it's removed from the fuel?

  4. #24

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    ...did you completely test the sample to see if it was still ASTM D4814 compliant?
    Once you remove the ethanol from the fuel it is no longer technically 4815 compliant, mainly because of the oxygenate levels have dropped back down (this makes sense because the ethanol is the oxygenate...used to help reduce polution), and therefore not technically allowed in STC'd aircraft. However, as you mentioned, Experimantals are no problem, and as a matter of fact, I whole heartedly believe it works better in my experimental Davis than AVGAS.

    In answer to the disposal question. PortableFuelSystems can only officially say at this point to "dispose of it responsibly and in accordance with local regulations".

    However, we are actively working with lawyers to define what the federally expected method is. I can tell you that all components (with the exception of the water) in the waste solution currently have devices on the market that burn them as fuel. We are working with a company now that makes ethanol lanters, heaters, and stoves to get an "official blessing" to burn this waste in their equipment. We are also looking at the liability concerns to determine if we can sell our own devices that use/burn the waste solution.

    Honestly, we expect the lawyers may come back and say that it is dilluted enough to just let it evaporate, but we will see what the final response is.
    www.portablefuelsystems.com
    Makers of the Alcohol Separation System
    Use our A-S-S to fix your gas!

  5. #25

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    Ethanol has less energy than gasoline. So the carb mixture needs to be more richer with alcohol. My STIHL chainsaw would not run with the new E10 because it was too lean to run (would just sputter and stop) The chain saw has fixed carb jets. I had to use avgas until I found a source of clear gas.

    Running a two-stroke slightly lean because of ethanol could result in engine seizure.
    I have a mower that always ran rich (fixed jets also). Now the mower runs fine with E10 because it needed a leaner fuel.
    Bill
    Last edited by Bill Berson; 10-28-2011 at 04:02 PM.

  6. #26
    Dana's Avatar
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    Ethanol has less energy, true, but that's not why it needs to run richer; that's a matter of stoichiometry. On the Cuyuna 2-stroke engine on my plane there's about a half jet size difference between avgas and 10% gasohol.

    This is actually a safety thing for me... I normally run mogas with ethanol; when I go cross country and refill with avgas I don't have to worry about lean seizures.

    -Dana

    .

  7. #27

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    Also the range will be less(a safety issue if unexpected).
    Will the power be less also? (also a safety issue)
    Is is possible to get the proper stoichiometric mix with ethanol and gasoline mixed together?
    Bill

  8. #28
    Dana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Berson View Post
    Also the range will be less(a safety issue if unexpected).
    Will the power be less also? (also a safety issue)
    Is is possible to get the proper stoichiometric mix with ethanol and gasoline mixed together?
    Bill
    Power and range will both be less, yes. Getting the proper stoichiometric mix is not a problem; it just requires a slightly larger carburetor jet.

  9. #29

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    I was just watching that tv program, with the Son of the guy that has Orange Co Choppers, the one in N Y, not Ca.
    Jr and his new shop built a custom chopper motorcycle for the Dekalb Co. It had the farm motive, some wood grained side panels, Dekalb emblem, and lot's of farm and tractor type details in one bike. Jr said it ran on ethanol, and seemed to run very well and burned cleaner than gasoline. I didn't see the whole program, so don;t know if it was pure ethanol or a blend in gas, sort of think it might be pure. I didn't see the part where they were setting up the engine, don't know what changes if any they did do adapt to that fuel. I'll keep my eye out for a rerun and try to see the first part.

  10. #30

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    One the big differences between cars and airplanes is how much they are used.

    Your average car is being driven every day, and the gasohol is getting rotated out of the gas tank pretty frequently. We don't see a lot of damage from water on cars because the alcohol is going out the tailpipe (and tiny amounts of the water it trapped), with fresh new alcohol coming in.

    Your average GA plane, however, sits most of the time. Gasohol really puts one in the "darned if you do, darned if you don't" situation. Fill the tank all the way up to keep atmospheric moisture out of the tank and the alcohol will just suck it up anyway. Keep the tank drained and atmospheric moisture will deposit moisture on its own. The same happens on all the bits and bobs that alcohol can damage - it always seems it's worse when equipment sits unused.
    The opinions and statements of this poster are largely based on facts and portray a possible version of the actual events.

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