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Thread: Balancing nose wheel of an a/c with tire on.

  1. #21

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    Where do you get " nasty vocabulary and bad attitude " from ? Merriam-Webster defines ignorant as; lacking knowledge or comprehension of the thing specified. If I called people stupid morons I would understand, but like I said, I too believed the FAA and the manufacturers at 1st until I came across things that were not correct. And I only new this because of my vast experience in auto and motorcycle racing and the physics of engineering that I had been taught. I don't know John at Sac Sky Ranch, so I don't know what he experienced. But I do know a pilot that has been racing at Reno in the Formula 1 class for a long time that still uses, and has cases of that old mobil one aviation oil that they stopped selling in 1994, and he spins that 0-200 well over 4,000 RPM, and he hasn't had the problems other racers experienced using other aviation oils. I use Mobil 1 car oil and I buy 5 qt jugs for $26 at Walmart. I am just trying to help out fellow pilots with scientific knowledge that for whatever reason is suppressed or ridiculed in the aviation community. And a few of the people in this forum are not the 1st to charge me with Heresy going agsinst the Religion of certified aviation. For over 10 years I've shown people the pistons and let them look inside the lower end of my 0-200 that hasn't been apart since 1975, yet looks brand new like it was assembled yesterday, and they still won't believe. But fortunately there are people that are new to aviation that are not disciples of this strange religion that do believe in facts and science.
    Dr.Bob....fw190rop@hotmail.com

  2. #22

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    The Voyager used Mobil 1 aviation oil and I believe they started selling it to the public in the late 80's, and pulled it in 1994. I got out of car racing in 1986 before synthetics got really big, and I was sponsored by Castrol. I didn't even know about the problems Mobil had until are started running Mobil 1 car oil after I seized a piston on Shell. I had been having my oil analized by a company in Arizona and after the seizure I got one of their engineers to admit that aviation oil was the poorest quality of any of the oils they tested, even tractor oils he said. So I then contacted an old friend from my racing days that was now working for one of the top motorcycle drag and roadrace teams and told him what happened. He is the one that told me to use Mobil 1, because he said it didn't break down at any temperature and it made the most horsepower of any oil they had tested. So just for kicks I did a little speed run with shell after I put a new cylinder on, and landed, changed the oil, took off and my engine rpm increased by almost 300rpm and I was suddenly 4mph faster ! I couldn't believe it, because in drag racing a tenth of a second is a lot of time so I wasn't expecting the gain in horsepower that I saw. So I immediately called my friend to tell him the amazing news and he started laughing. He told me that they had dynoed every oil made and Mobil 1 was over 5hp more than the next best oil. He said if the Valvoline Nascar team was winning races, they were pouring Mobil 1 into Valvoline bottles. When I told other pilots how great Mobil 1 worked they said I was going to kill myself and told me about what happened with Mobil 1 aviation oil. The story didn't make sense so I asked my friend to talk to people at Mobil, since they were sponsored by them, and find out the real story. He said there were only 2 people initially that claimed they had problems, and their engineers said it wasn't from the oil, but these guys had a lot of money and started a class action lawsuit. And in lawsuit America, many jumped on the bad wagon hoping to get a quick buck. Mobil knew going in there was no money in aviation oil, but after Voyager's success they thought they would get some cheap publicity. But it never hurt them in the automotive field, because it works so good. I would think other synthetic oils have caught up with Mobil 1, but I have no desire or incentive to do any testing since this stuff works so good. I hate typing, so if you have any questions give me a call.
    Dr.Bob (818)485-7311

  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Greenwood View Post
    Justin, it was pretty simple on my Bonanza. I had a main tire removed at annual to replace a tube with a slow leak. The next takeoffs I notice a vibration; not severe but noticeable. It is clearly related to a tire that is rotating. The vibration is not there on runup, and it is there on takeoff roll, and it increases with speed until the liftoff about 70K. After liftoff tapping the right brake stops it right away. So I had the shop redo it and the problem went away. I suspect that the A&P was in a bit of a hurry and thought he did not have to rebalance just for a tube, but the took care of it, no charge.
    Once before I had a tire changed at a quick and cheap shop, and had vibration and had to go to a better shop to balance it .Problem solved
    I am not an A&P, but I have been around both car, cycle, and plane repair shops for 50 years, and was a mechanic in the A F. It seems to me to be good practice, that if you have a problem you look at the last thing that was changed,( ie the tire or tube) and also start with the simplest item first. The mechanics I use for this plane have decades of experience,and lots of satisfied customers. For another plane I use QG Aviation, who built award winners as well as a Osh grand champion, and that it the way they do things.
    Thanks for the meaningful insight. I would love the opportunity to look further into a case like yours. While I completely understand and believe that you had an issue and balancing fixed it, it would be fun to try to see if it could be tracked down to something else. There's no better way to prove a point then by actually going through the process. You aren't an A&P or don't do too much of your own work (which building a tire you can do as a pilot) but trying some different things with your tires/setup could be a great way to try and "prove" one side of the argument or other. Where are you located?

    Unlike Bob, I would like to be scientific about it, not just make baseless claims with no facts or data. The real way to solve the argument would be to get a test bed and hook up sensors, track different tires, wheels, aircraft, etc. Would be very interesting.

    Bob, you put a lot of words into a lot of peoples mouths. Your assumptions about peoples experiences, education, training and ignorance does nothing to help your case or prove your point. I'm sure you have some great ideas and thoughts. I completely agree that Aviation is archaic. There are a lot of processes and technologies used because "that's how we've always done it". There are still pilots out there that aren't comfortable with flying composite aircraft. It takes time to change ideas and integrate technologies especially with something like Aviation that is deemed such a hazardous activity. But you running out from behind a barn yelling "hey ya'll just fly mobil 1 auto oil, cus I've done it for 14 years, your all ignorant for not" is NOT how you're going to get a lot of people's attention. I'm sure you have and I'm sure it worked fine, how many people run Marvel Mystery Oil in their engines (until EAA did the great article about what's actually in it). Why don't you write an article for EAA on using auto oil in aircraft engines.

  4. #24

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    Justin, if the problem I had started with a main tire removed and new tube added, and it was verifed as to which tire bu tapping the right brake after liftoff, and then it was cured by having the shop go back and rebalance just that tire, which cured the problem. I don't see that there is much else to "track down". By the way the shop is Brungard at Boulder, Co. long time experts on Bonanzas.
    I use Marvel Mystery oil in my Bonanza at the recommendation of the engine overhauler. Exhaust valve sticking and wear are major problems in large Continental engines, like my TSIO 520 UB, and the Marvel may help. I also use it in another engine wear top end, and cam wear is a problem.
    I don't have any idea that there are some exotic or magic ingredients in Marvel, as far as I know it is just a light oil. But there is a half century of good use behind it, like the airlines that use to buy it by the drum when they ran radial engines.
    I didnt' see the EAA article on Marvel, can you paraphrase it ? Thanks

  5. #25

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    Bob, , frankly you seem to have a bias or anger against the FAA and the legal process, like a class action lawsuit, that colors your version of this. Have you or do any of those close to you work for Mobil?

    I went to Google to refresh my memory from the Av 1 problem back in 1994-96. I recall Av Consumer covered it.

    Yes, not all engines seem to have been damaged by AV i. But if it was only 2 guys, with no real other evidence, I don't think Mobil would have stepped up and paid for so many engines. It is to their credit that they did, however I don't think that lawsuit was going to just go away for lack of evidence. And I don't think that major law firm would have taken on the suit, probably on a contingent fee basis, without some good evidence.

    And you still haven't said what you think caused the damage in the engines that used AV 1, whether it was 2 or two thousand?

    And Mobil sold and promoted the oil for use in normal use in regular airplanes. Do you think the positive example of your small race engine turning high power and high rpm for a short time, and the Voyager continuous flight of a few days without stopping, might be quite a bit different than normal use?

  6. #26

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    uavmx, can you read ? And if you can, did you actually read what I said ? Get a phyics book and read the effects of a rotating mass. Do you have your tires on your car balanced ? Maybe you should 1st hook up some sensors, track different tires, wheels, cars, etc.

  7. #27

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    Bill, I hate these one-way written conversations, they waste to much time. I would be happy to give you more info on all your questions, so give me a call or e-mail me your number and I'll spend my dime.

    Dr.Bob (818)485-7311.....fw190prop@hotmail.com

  8. #28

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    Back to the topic at hand:

    After liftoff tapping the right brake stops it right away.
    My money is on an unbalanced tire. Maybe on a slim chance a bearing issue, but I'd check balance first.
    The opinions and statements of this poster are largely based on facts and portray a possible version of the actual events.

  9. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Greenwood View Post
    Justin, if the problem I had started with a main tire removed and new tube added, and it was verifed as to which tire bu tapping the right brake after liftoff, and then it was cured by having the shop go back and rebalance just that tire, which cured the problem. I don't see that there is much else to "track down". By the way the shop is Brungard at Boulder, Co. long time experts on Bonanzas.
    I use Marvel Mystery oil in my Bonanza at the recommendation of the engine overhauler. Exhaust valve sticking and wear are major problems in large Continental engines, like my TSIO 520 UB, and the Marvel may help. I also use it in another engine wear top end, and cam wear is a problem.
    I don't have any idea that there are some exotic or magic ingredients in Marvel, as far as I know it is just a light oil. But there is a half century of good use behind it, like the airlines that use to buy it by the drum when they ran radial engines.
    I didnt' see the EAA article on Marvel, can you paraphrase it ? Thanks
    The article on MMO pretty much stated it's not a mystery any more because with MSDS's these days, you can find out what's in it. Two ingredients that were quite interesting was pig fat (i think that's what it was) and purple die. Pretty much it was some odd ball ingredients that were refuted to have any benefits. It was a good article, I can't find it, maybe someone can find it and scan it in? I believe the author was Mike Busch. You know what, now that I think about it, it might have been in the American Bonanza Society's Mag. As with Bobs earlier argument about showing people the bottom end of his o-200 that's perfectly clean on auto oil. There are SO MANY factors, and many of them are how people fly, how they maintain, how they store, how long the aircraft sits, where the aircraft sits, how the engine was built, odd luck that you don't have a faulty/sub par engine part from the get go. Every engine is different, even if they were made side by side with the same parts, they will act differently. SO many variables, I don't think you can attribute them to one thing or another (MMO or Auto Oil for ex) I'm sure you can find someone that's been running normal Aeroshell for 15 years that has just a gorgeous bottom end as Bob's.

    As to your balance issue, what I mean is it would be fun to try and solve the problem in other ways (mentioned in an above post) and see if the fault could be corrected in a different way then balancing. Obviously the balance fixed your issue, but part of my argument is that maybe it can be solved in another way that is a bigger picture issue, not just a balance fix. Obviously if your paying someone to do the work you won't be interested because it's much cheaper to just balance it.

    Bob, Cars V Airplanes so many differences it's not even worth bringing up. And I agree with Bill, race cars, race engines, high revs, max power, you don't need 15 years of life out them, not exposed to the same climates for long periods of time, etc etc etc comparing race engines to AC engines is not grounds to use as facts. There are different resulting goals that you are trying to accomplish.
    Last edited by uavmx; 10-29-2011 at 10:05 AM.

  10. #30
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    It can't hurt, thats the first concern. You will also get a good inspection of your wheels, axles, all of the suspension.
    Maybe try a Hi-Performance Kart shop..... [ the lay flat shifter carts ] Check out the online catalogs for a cheap tool.
    Me, I would use a piece of .5" drill rod, turn 2 nylon cones and set it between a V jig much like motorcycle truing/ balancing has been
    done for 100+ years.

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