Golf Carts at Airventure

[mikw53]

I think Bill is definitely on to something with the jealousy issue. Let me take it a step further. One of the big problems with the pedestrian/ vehicle interactions at Oshkosh is that, frankly, too many pedestrians are walking around with poor situational awareness. Oshkosh just lends itself to a lot of "ooh look at that!" moments, plus in this era too many are walking while looking down at their phones instead of around them. In my time as a volunteer I've driven literally thousands of miles inside the Oshkosh grounds in everything from a scooter to a pickup truck, so I've seen the other side of this. Many's the time I've been driving, at a safe speed paying close attention, only to have someone wander in front of me necessitating evasive action because they weren't paying attention. Some even give the stink eye or say something smart, mostly as a balm to their egos, I think.

The restricted vehicle zone around airshow center has absolutely cut down on the amount of vehicle traffic in that area, and anyone who says otherwise is just wrong. However, as a consequence, it has also forced more traffic to the periphery (it has to go somewhere) and increased vehicle/ pedestrian interaction in those areas. Hint- if you are walking on asphalt with lines painted on it, it's a road and you might want to look around before you wander across it.

One Dr Phil comment and I was willing to let it go .That either of you would actually believe that a safety issue has anything to do with jealousy is beyond common sense.That one of you would blame the pedestrians is even more unbelievable.It's an airshow!!!!! people are and will be completely distracted as it should be .It means it's a great show.That is exactly why they should be banned except for vendors restocking and emergencies.Someone looking at there phone should not have to worry about getting hit by a golf cart.
Once again I and others who complain about golf carts are not envious.Why in Gods name would I want to be continually getting in and out of a cart to stop and see everything I want to see(which would be hundreds of times )?
We are not jealous just fearful so stop grabbing at straws and deal with the real issue,SAFTEY.
Good Grief.
Write what you will I am through with this issue.

[Rod Schneider]

Well, I'm certainly NOT jealous!!! I agree that there are far too many golf carts moving through crowds of people. Last year I came within inches of being run over by a lady who was sitting on a golf cart talking to someone when I walked by. She was stopped and had been for the 15 seconds or so that I saw the cart. Just as I began to pass in front of her, she started moving and was still turned around talking to someone, never saw me. I jumped back as she passed by, nearly running over my toes, we were that close. This happened in front of the EAA Wearhouse and the area was packed with people. It's just a matter of time before someone gets seriously hurt. Maybe the EAA will listen when that happens.

[BeagleOne]

Jealousy? Oh, please, spare me. I've been walking the grounds of the fly-in since it first arrived in 1970 and I don't mind the walking, although I DO appreciate the trams and use them often during the week. But the influx of golf carts has gotten completely out of hand, especially along Wittman Road. Yes, I do realize that a paved surface with lines on it may be considered a road. I ALSO realize that Wittman Road is, and has been for decades, the main north-south route for PEDESTRIANS. You know, the jealous people who come to Oshkosh to see airplanes and spend a lot of money.

Auctioning off the use of a golf cart during the fly-in is ridiculous. I thought EAA was going back to its roots, and more power to that idea. But I can just imagine how entitled someone who's paid several thousand dollars to use a golf cart for the week is going to be.

It will be interesting to see what the golf cart advocates have to say when the inevitable happens and someone sues EAA after they've been seriously injured by some non-jealous person in an unnecessary golf cart.

[Bill Greenwood]

I have been to EAA for 3 decades, always had a good time, and can't imagine letting the fact that someone else has a golf cart spoil or define my week. Nor am I just hoping for a cart accident so I can point fingers.
Jealousy is a poor taskmaster.

I certainly do worry about safety at EAA, and there have been a number of fatal crashes there,and I lost some friends and almost lost some others.
Just never occured to me to worry about golf carts.
How many people total are killed in the U S by golf cart accidents off road, not on a street or highway? Probably more than that have been hit by props at Osh.

And if it is only safety that is a real concern, then why do you care if 2 of the many carts came from a member auction?

Should we make Bud Anderson walk?

[Mayhemxpc]

Rather than going down the path of name calling and questioning people's motives, may I suggest we go back to first things and define the problem?

The problem, as I understand it, is NOT golf carts. The problem is SOME of the people who are driving the golf carts. We have heard in this string some people who are aware of the impact of their driving on those who came to see the show. They sound responsible and situationally aware. They are not the problem, and certainly their golf carts are not the problem. If all golf cart drivers were like them this conversation would be much different. Unfortunately, not all drivers are like them. Are MOST golf cart drivers responsible users? I don't know. In my very unscientific sample of the ones I have seen, I would say yes, they are. Can the minority create a hazard for many and generate ill will even to those who drive responsibly? Yes, and we have seen a little of that here.

So the problem seems to be that some unknown number representing some unknown segment of the users of golf carts are using their carts in a way that is not in keeping with accepted use, is not in keeping with the high standards of friendliness typical of Oshkosh, and can present a hazard. What can we do about that? Ban them? Not likely. Tell them not to drive certain places? This has been done, with some, although not complete success (to include airshow center.)

It is a human factors problem and needs a human factors solution. It is a risk management issue and should be addressed as such. Risk treatment should include a be a risk management approach to the numbers of carts allowed (exposure and consequences), where they go, and how such authorizations are issued (including training) and enforced consequences.

We are pilots, we should be able to convince AirVenture management, who are also pilots, to apply a little risk management (which, of by the way includes communication) before deciding to auction off carts (increasing both exposure and possible impact.) Maybe they did. If so, can they tell us about it?

[mmorrison123]

Ah Chris, thanks for the voice of reason. I had the opportunity to meet many of the EAA staff last year. I was impressed with one and all. Perhaps one of them is listening and can chime in on the rules and plans, if any, to restrict carts from certain areas/times.

Malcolm

[BeagleOne]

No, of course we shouldn't "make Bud Anderson walk". Or anyone, well-known or not, who has a legitimate mobility issue, for that matter. What unnecessary snark, and not germane to the discussion.

Adding two more golf carts is a big deal not because of the number, although it DOES add two more unnecessary vehicles to the mix. It's a big deal because the people who buy their use probably aren't doing it because they have a mobility issue or any need for the cart. It's also a big deal because it shows that EAA management apparently doesn't think the increasing number of vehicles is a problem.

I don't let the presence of golf carts spoil or define my week. Speaking up about a safety issue that is getting worse, not better, and which could be easily solved is not the same as letting that issue spoil or define Oshkosh for me. And I'm certainly NOT hoping for a cart accident. Good grief.

[Frank Giger]

we always pick up old guys (like us) Or if you have a hot looking wife of girlfriend <g>

I'm an old guy with a hot looking wife. Looks like I ain't walking!

[Bill Greenwood]

"Beagle One" whoever you are hiding behind that screen name, you say the problem of number of vehicles is getting worse. Do you have any figures that show how many golf carts are in use now as opposed to perhaps 5 or 10 years ago? There may well be more, I haven't noticed that much, but then again I spend more of my convention at one end, but I do get all the way down south and up north at least once.

And, once again do you have any figures about golf cart accidents anywhere except on a road or street? If there are a lot of fatals from them anywhere, I am not aware of it, as a matter of fact I can't recall reading or knowing about even a single fatal golf cart accident. ATV 4 wheelers yes, but carts not that I know of.
And do you see any other potential dangers at EAA, such as perhaps airplane accidents that are fatal and have you lobbied to do anything to make them safer, or is your entire focus on golf carts?

I assume that when EAA gives out the golf carts they give some guidance on its usage, such as that pedestrians have the right of way and maybe a top speed limit, such as 10 mph. EAA should do this, and if someone is not following these rules then the cart should of course, be removed.

And I realize that I may be in the minority, that a number of people were burned up about the 2 chalets that you could pay extra and get in, and a lot probably feel that way about someone else having use of a golf cart, and if someone could figure a way to make the complaints about the chalets a safety? issue they probably would. Myself, I hope to enjoy the convention again this year, and not walk while staring at a cell phone, and don't expect to be hit by a golf cart.

Or you could retain a good personal injury lawyer, and try to walk in front of carts and hope to make enough money off the resulting action to live happily for a long time on>

[FlyingRon]

I assume that when EAA gives out the golf carts they give some guidance on its usage, such as that pedestrians have the right of way and maybe a top speed limit, such as 10 mph. EAA should do this, and if someone is not following these rules then the cart should of course, be removed.

I know of no such policy. The chairmen of the various groups get assigned carts. They issue them to their staff/volunteers. They set their own policy as to how they get used. Frankly, in the times I've driven them, I've not found they go tremendously fast even when the pedal is floored. Common sense says you have to yield to pedestrians. The only rigid enforcement is the NO CART ZONES in the central area from the West Ramp (Aeroshell Square or whoever is this year's sponsor) up through the exhibit areas with exception of the one crossing between the exhibit buildings.


Believe me it is BETTER than it used to be. I've been coming here since 1993. That doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement.