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Thread: unfair

  1. #1

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    unfair

    Let me start out by stating who I am.....Tony Zorn.... IAC # 24372 since 1996 ...2013 Northeast Advanced Champion...Not that my time nor acheivements gives me credibility at all!!!
    But after years of competition it does give me some perspective. I understand that some will disagree with me. My issue is with some competitiors that after 3 or 4 years of flying advanced continue to compete in "Unlimted Machines" in the advanced category!
    My opinion is move up{category} or move back in performance{airframe}!
    How can you consider it fair fight on a hot day with the guys flying the "4 cyl small winged" mounts in the unknowns..

    Tony
    Last edited by flyrite; 10-03-2014 at 04:11 PM. Reason: more empasis

  2. #2
    RetroAcro's Avatar
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    Yeah Tony, when are you moving back to Intermediate so we neophyte bi-wing guys have a chance in Advanced? Missed you at Warrenton buddy!

    Eric

  3. #3

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    Rolls Eyes unfair

    Quote Originally Posted by RetroAcro View Post
    Yeah Tony, when are you moving back to Intermediate so we neophyte bi-wing guys have a chance in Advanced? Missed you at Warrenton buddy!

    Eric
    Eric ..A Neophyte..WOW I didn't know were going to bring sexual orientation into competition flying .
    Hated to miss Warrenton , But alas WX did not participate. I plan to make Morganton though!

    On the Advanced Lifers flying the unlimited machines year after year in the catogory....Thought I would stir the pot alittle.

    Take care
    Tony
    Last edited by flyrite; 09-15-2014 at 05:02 AM.

  4. #4

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    OK, I'll bite. What is an "Unlimited machine"? I beat guys who are flying Intermediate in their Sukhoi's and $400K Extras, and I "merely" fly an Pitts S-2A. Its the pilot not the ride. Suck it up and get more coaching.

    Best of luck,

    Wes
    N78PS
    Last edited by WLIU; 09-14-2014 at 03:37 PM.

  5. #5

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    Wes, If I got to s'plain it to a guy like you, Then really there's no use in making the argument for the umpteenth time!!

    When you can explain why their use to be rules dictating by the IAC what was AWAC legal up to at least the early 2000's ..Then you can tell me to suck it up & get more coaching!

    I am very pleased with my results when I compete... I beat'm also...My issue is not my results , But anyone who would argue that a guy flying a "Small Winged 4 cyl" against a "Big winged 6 cly" guy is a fair fight in my opinon has disqualified themselves from the argument! Also to address YOUR competeing against the "Unlimited Machines" in intermediate.... You cant use the performance in the lower categories like you can in the advanced & unlimited...Otherwise the 4 cy guys would be competing in unlimited!.........Move up to advanced & the more complex seqences & see how you feel about the differences in performance !!

    BTW..The way you described the planes you compete against shows you know what an "Unlimited Machine" is....Just not willing to acknowledge the performance gap!

    Take Care
    Tony
    Last edited by flyrite; 12-15-2014 at 07:46 AM.

  6. #6

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    The competition categories present increasing difficulty not just in technical execution, but also in terms of $$, time, and equipment. You have to bring enough of all of these dimensions to the arena.

    I do not expect to fly a Decathlon once a month and be successful in Intermediate if we define success as consistently bringing a trophy home. The flip side is that I don't expect to bring a Sukhoi or the latest $400,000 supership to a contest and be awarded a trophy just for showing up.

    I do not fly my Pitts S-2A in Advanced because I am not able to budget for the increased time and $$ required for practice and coaching and the increased maintenance required due to accelerated wear and tear on the airplane. To successfully fly Advanced I will need to budget for a higher performance airplane and more time and $$ for coaching.

    Now the reality is that when Dan Rihn went to the drawing board 20 years ago he configured the One Design airplane for the performance that the Advanced and maybe Unlimited categories required at that time. But the world changed in the last 20 years as other designs hit the streets and pilot skills improved. The upper categories have gotten harder, requiring more of both the machine and the pilot. There is now a bigger wing for the One Design in an attempt to keep up.

    Unfortunately, some of us have smaller budgets for competition. That's life. I compete against a friend who flies a brand new Extra 330 in Intermediate. I can and do outscore him in my "lowly" S-2A if I can connect my eyes and brain to my hands and feet working the controls on contest day despite his apparent performance advantage. That is the challenge. The reward is a trophy that cost about $30 and bragging rights for a week or two. That's all.

    So I guess that we all occasionally get frustrated that we can not make our rides do the same things that pilots who have more expensive or higher performance rides do, but we can still score more points. We fly the same flight programs. Performance can hurt as much as it can help. You can make mistakes faster. And the Unknown Program tends to reward the pilots who can think at speed.

    Now as I noted in the second paragraph there are limits to what you can get out of your ride, and that gets back to bringing enough airplane to the contest. Frankly, to move to Advanced I would be swapping my Pitts for a Staudacher, a Lazer, or maybe a Super Stinker. Those monoplanes have more wing and balance better and the SS design recognizes the changes in the competition world since Curtis Pitts first started drawing up plans for his biplanes.

    An airplane is not a lifetime commitment and if you are competing with one you have to regularly take a hard look at your equipment and how it helps you deploy your pilot skills. Sounds like its time for a change.

    Best of luck,

    Wes
    N78PS
    Last edited by WLIU; 09-15-2014 at 06:22 AM.

  7. #7

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    Wes,...With out meaning to you have framed how IAC has dropped the ball. Its about the money your willing to spend on equipment in advanced rather than having rules to keep the little guy in a fair fight.
    Last edited by flyrite; 11-26-2014 at 09:11 AM.

  8. #8
    Byron J. Covey
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    Quote Originally Posted by flyrite View Post
    Wes,...With out meaning to you have framed how IAC has dropped the ball. Its about the money your willing to spend on equipment in advanced rather than having rules to keep the little guy in a fair fight.
    This must be about round 83 of the eternal debate ...

    Tony: Do you believe that a clipped wing Cub should be able to compete in Unlimited? Just trying to define the boundaries of your contention.

  9. #9

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    It is indeed an eternal debate. And the debate does not change the conditions in the contest arena.

    A guy in the Marine Corps once said "if you show up for a fair fight, you are unprepared."

    In golf, you can buy a $1000 driver, but that won't keep your ball on the fairway or guarantee you a winning score.

    Aerobatics is the same. I compete in IAC Intermediate in my Pitts S-2A. I have peers who are able to spend 8 times as much to buy their airplane as I spent on mine. Their airplane is powered by 50% more horsepower and can go 50 mph faster. Just like in golf, I can not influence how my peers put that fancy equipment to work to post a score. But I can and do work on my own airplane, on my own skills, and my knowledge of the rules, to make the best use of my airplane, my skills, and the smarts that I can muster at 200mph in a contest box 3500' wide.

    Competition is hard. Its supposed to be. Its competition. Bill Rose, the 1980 US Team Trainer, once told me that each category up the ladder is about twice as hard. That observation feels right to me as I look around. So if you can take the 1st place trophy home through your dedicated preparation and execution, what is the point of complaining that it is hard? This is one arena that mirrors real life where there are winners and losers and of you don't take a trophy home its up to you to look in the mirror and think about what it will take to get to where you want to be and whether you are willing to do the work to get there. And as we look in the mirror we all have to come to terms with ourselves, our motivations, our means, and the fact that the reward is only a $35 trophy and the respect and admiration of a very small group of peers.

    We have all winter to get ready for next season. I am upgrading the airplane and planning to work on the figures that did not get good enough scores in 2014. And planning how to practice more with better critiquing than last season. I hope that you are doing the same.

    See you at the box,

    Wes
    N78PS

  10. #10

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    It amazes me the lengths people will go to defend what is obvious......Guys how can you argue that the extras...staudachers...mx's...etc... don't have a big advantage flying the sequences in advanced over the pitt's....1D's...etc .

    Even the IAC director for my region admitted in a conversation to me last week... yes it's an extreme advantage, He by his own admission said when he moved from the little pitts to a staudaucher it was a big advantage for him. He said the only way to get the rules changed is to have enough of the membership to make it an issue or the board with continue to allow CIVA sentiment to dominate the rules we fly by here!
    Fellas I have no problem with competing against bad odds ....I can do a fair job of getting thru the unlimited known with my little 1D....But I'm smart enough to know that I'm not going to be competitive in unlimited with the other equipment because of how the sequences favor the HP & wing area of them.

    It's called "Unlimited" for a reason!

    But if I'm going to spend the money to get ready for a contest & fly as well as I can I would like it to be as much about skills as possible{BTW Wes that's what Dan was trying to do with the one design concept}I like hard competition, Got one whole room with a wall just for my $35.00 trophies....But when one competitor can start at the bottom of the box & work up thru the sequence he starts with a big advantage over anyone that can't....Thats just a fact..And no amount of practice will overcome that!

    Now Wes you seem to think that's alright. That if a guy doesn't like the disadvantage then he should be willing to put out the $$$'s to be competitive or look in the mirror or come to terms with themselves, motivations, etc.....I would contend that we acknowledge the issue & go about getting the IAC to address it as they once did. What I have found in bringing this "Eternal Debate" up every chance I could this past year is this...After the initial arguments that some are making even here... I can get every person or persons to finally agree that yes there is a big disparity no reasonable person would argue that. Every sport you could compete in has rules to even the disparities in equipment......What say we get into car racing, Are we gonna allow the super modifieds to run in the sportsman class, Boat racing the same....motorcycles the same...Name one motor sport that allows the firebreathers to compete in any class without some sort of "handicaps".

    BTW...I noticed no one addressed the FACT that the IAC use to have these very handicaps[what was awac legal] I'm talking about.....The Board members of the past to the early 2000's certainly recognized the disparity. If you want to blame the economy as the only reason our sport is at an all time low I would agree with that being a big part of it , But Fellas lets don't keep our heads in the sand about the obvious catogory creep thru the years in advanced....Were flying close to the level of the unlimiteds of a few years back in difficulty.
    Most intermediate guys aspired to move up, Knowing that they could put in the practice & have the contest be about skills not equipment

    The difference then is that most everybodys mount was reasonably close in performance...That's no longer the case!

    Oh well, We ain't none of us getting any smarter on this subject so all you guys tell me again how I just need to pay for some more coaching & put more gas thru the tank & quit complaining to makeup for my poor results{which ain't been to bad} & so on & so forth.....

    Take Care
    Tony
    Last edited by flyrite; 09-24-2014 at 02:37 PM.

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