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Thread: unfair

  1. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by flyrite View Post
    how about this...you have flown other mount's & now have the benefit of flying your present mount....let's not talk around the issue by trying to debate minutia...do you agree that it's a big advantage having the h.p. & wing area in the category over the lower performance mount's...yes or no?
    bump>>>craig

  2. #62

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    Over 5000 views in just over 2 month's.....I have no idea why .......Ahhhh....Probably just a lot of people waiting on a good argument to be made .....[Me to].....Or some may be wondering if the guy who started the thread will continue to stir the pot....Hmmmm....I know that guy & he is an unruly sort of fellow.

    Come on fella's...If ya gone fly'em ....Don't be ashamed to defend'em....I'm willing to be seen as the "spoiled sport" that need's the rule's to prop me up, So where's the fear on your part ? I thought there was at least one guy that was gonna defend the code on the other side. Interesting that none of the guy's flying the unlimited's in advanced for years will jump in on this thread......I know you guy's are visiting here...Don't be scared of this "little ole debate"


    Take care
    Tony
    Last edited by flyrite; 11-25-2014 at 08:00 PM.

  3. #63

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    Tony -

    I get detailed analytics for several web sites, and it's very common for web crawlers (Google, Bing, et al) to generate far more "reads" than humans do on low-traffic sites. Just sayin'.

    As to why nobody's commenting... Seriously, what else is there to say? Every point and counter-point was expressed within the first few posts of this protracted thread.

    Regards,
    DJ

  4. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Molny View Post
    Tony -

    I get detailed analytics for several web sites, and it's very common for web crawlers (Google, Bing, et al) to generate far more "reads" than humans do on low-traffic sites. Just sayin'.

    As to why nobody's commenting... Seriously, what else is there to say? Every point and counter-point was expressed within the first few posts of this protracted thread.

    Regards,
    DJ
    DJ, Trust me, The "advanced lifers" flying the unlimited machine's are visiting here...And if I can encourage some of them feller's to quit "Cheat'n"...Well, Then I'm all about pushing those member's to continue to develop their skill's & "MOVE UP" to the category that their mount's were designed for...[Don't you think the unlimited category need's it]But really.. don't you find it interesting that none of them guy's will argue for themself's!
    It's obvious that the powers that be [IAC] are not going to address this & as you've pointed out "Every point & counter Point has been made".

    And to your point of the interest in this thread being more about "web crawler's" than actual real people visiting.....I bow to your knowledge of this medium...But believe me when I say there is a lot of interest on this issue in the sport.


    Thanks for the explaining why the view's just keep increasing...[ I do find it curious that the other topic's don't enjoy the same increase in views]...But me & the "Official IAC forum" will continue to enjoy the exposure provided by the crawler's.

    Take care

    Tony
    Last edited by flyrite; 12-13-2014 at 08:03 AM.

  5. #65

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    5500.............&................counting........ Director's, tell me......is it folk wondering about the "Redneck" continuing to stir the pot...[ them pesky web crawler's]...Or... could there be a true interest in the issue ?

    Take care

    Tony
    Last edited by flyrite; 11-30-2014 at 04:21 PM.

  6. #66
    Tony,
    You asked me to jump in on this thread so here goes.I guess I need to approach this ”unfair” thread you started as both your Regional director and as as an individual IAC member.
    I’ll have to switch hats.


    You wanted my opinion on your “unfair” thread as your Director. Well, as a director I don’t have one. As a director it is my job to vote at a board meeting in a manner that has been indicated to me by the membership. If I do not have enough input from the membership to give me an indication as to what they want, I use my judgment keeping in mind what I feel is best for the club. My primary concern is the health of the club.


    You claim that this “Unfair” situation is responsable for driving people away from or out of the IAC. Obviously, thats something we do not want. Your thread spoke of doing some thing to even the playing field. Handicapping was mentioned and limitations were hinted at.
    If you are serious about this subject you need to switch from being pro-vocal to being pro-active. When we spoke you asked me, “ Am I supposed to contact each member personally?”.
    well, yes, that’s how I would go about it. The thread you started, as it is, won’t get the job done. In seven pages on line you only had seven people responding to you. I wouldn’t use the “Exploder”, it would do just that..explode. If I were you I would write an article for SA to touch each member. You would need to explain the problem as you see it and what you feel should be done to rectify it. In it refer the membership to your thread. I’m sure Reggie would print it if it were well written. I have no doubt it would be well done,after reading your thread it’s evident you know your way around a key board. You express yourself well.


    Once you start getting responses form a committee. Have the group formulate the rule or rule change it feels well rectify the problem you wish to solve. When you come up with a proposal make sure it includes:
    1) The problem as your committee sees it.
    2) The old rule if there is one.
    3) If there is no rule to modify ,where in the rules book should your new rule be placed.
    4) Should your rule touch or effect other rules within the book state how those need
    to be modified.
    5) What your committee feels the new rule will accomplish.
    The proposed change has to go to Brian ( rules chair) for publication to get the member comments. It well be voted on at the next Fall Board meeting in Oshkosh.
    Simple! If it is on the agenda at that meeting and I am on the Board,I will vote for it if there is indication that the large majority of members want it passed.
    As your Director I wish you luck with your new callange.


    Now, Speaking as IAC member #1999, I can say I don’t completely agree with you. Yes, I see that the Single wing high horsepower A/C has some advantage. That advantage, however, can be a two headed snake. Advantages like higher speeds,more vertical penetration, longer lines,and 420*/sec. roll rate. I’ve had these advantages work against me on numerous occasions.The faster speeds eat the box,the long lines means more exposure to the judges.
    I will however fly the higher performance machine because you don’t have to work as hard.


    Our judges are taught to judge the roundness of a loop not how large it is. The 1 for 5* rule applies to all types of A/C but the most exposure to judges goes to the Hi powered machines. It’s much easier for the judge to see uneven lines or off vertical lines on those long ones.
    Tony, Im sure you see where I’m going with this but let me tell you, the system isn’t broke. Our judges are the best in the world, trust me. I have been doing this sport sense 1972. That’s 42
    years. During that time I averaged 6 regional and 1 National contest each year. I can honestly say that during that entire time, THE BEST PILOTS TOOK HOME THE TROPHIES. Tony, it made no difference who made the plane at the bottom of the stick or how big the engine was at the end of the throttle cable..... The best pilots won!


    If you make a rule that dictates to me how many years I am allowed to fly my plane in a category before I have to change either the plane or category, you’ll only see me on a golf course. If you do something like that, and I feel thats what you are hinting, this Club will disappear. The sport won’t but the club will.
    My suggestion to you is to move up to a high priced high powered monoplane. After all Tony,
    it’s the American way.


    Tom

  7. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Adams View Post
    Tony,
    You asked me to jump in on this thread so here goes.I guess I need to approach this ”unfair” thread you started as both your Regional director and as as an individual IAC member.
    I’ll have to switch hats.


    You wanted my opinion on your “unfair” thread as your Director. Well, as a director I don’t have one. As a director it is my job to vote at a board meeting in a manner that has been indicated to me by the membership. If I do not have enough input from the membership to give me an indication as to what they want, I use my judgment keeping in mind what I feel is best for the club. My primary concern is the health of the club.


    You claim that this “Unfair” situation is responsable for driving people away from or out of the IAC. Obviously, thats something we do not want. Your thread spoke of doing some thing to even the playing field. Handicapping was mentioned and limitations were hinted at.
    If you are serious about this subject you need to switch from being pro-vocal to being pro-active. When we spoke you asked me, “ Am I supposed to contact each member personally?”.
    well, yes, that’s how I would go about it. The thread you started, as it is, won’t get the job done. In seven pages on line you only had seven people responding to you. I wouldn’t use the “Exploder”, it would do just that..explode. If I were you I would write an article for SA to touch each member. You would need to explain the problem as you see it and what you feel should be done to rectify it. In it refer the membership to your thread. I’m sure Reggie would print it if it were well written. I have no doubt it would be well done,after reading your thread it’s evident you know your way around a key board. You express yourself well.


    Once you start getting responses form a committee. Have the group formulate the rule or rule change it feels well rectify the problem you wish to solve. When you come up with a proposal make sure it includes:
    1) The problem as your committee sees it.
    2) The old rule if there is one.
    3) If there is no rule to modify ,where in the rules book should your new rule be placed.
    4) Should your rule touch or effect other rules within the book state how those need
    to be modified.
    5) What your committee feels the new rule will accomplish.
    The proposed change has to go to Brian ( rules chair) for publication to get the member comments. It well be voted on at the next Fall Board meeting in Oshkosh.
    Simple! If it is on the agenda at that meeting and I am on the Board,I will vote for it if there is indication that the large majority of members want it passed.
    As your Director I wish you luck with your new callange.


    Now, Speaking as IAC member #1999, I can say I don’t completely agree with you. Yes, I see that the Single wing high horsepower A/C has some advantage. That advantage, however, can be a two headed snake. Advantages like higher speeds,more vertical penetration, longer lines,and 420*/sec. roll rate. I’ve had these advantages work against me on numerous occasions.The faster speeds eat the box,the long lines means more exposure to the judges.
    I will however fly the higher performance machine because you don’t have to work as hard.


    Our judges are taught to judge the roundness of a loop not how large it is. The 1 for 5* rule applies to all types of A/C but the most exposure to judges goes to the Hi powered machines. It’s much easier for the judge to see uneven lines or off vertical lines on those long ones.
    Tony, Im sure you see where I’m going with this but let me tell you, the system isn’t broke. Our judges are the best in the world, trust me. I have been doing this sport sense 1972. That’s 42
    years. During that time I averaged 6 regional and 1 National contest each year. I can honestly say that during that entire time, THE BEST PILOTS TOOK HOME THE TROPHIES. Tony, it made no difference who made the plane at the bottom of the stick or how big the engine was at the end of the throttle cable..... The best pilots won!


    If you make a rule that dictates to me how many years I am allowed to fly my plane in a category before I have to change either the plane or category, you’ll only see me on a golf course. If you do something like that, and I feel thats what you are hinting, this Club will disappear. The sport won’t but the club will.
    My suggestion to you is to move up to a high priced high powered monoplane. After all Tony,
    it’s the American way.


    Tom


    Thanks so much Tom for your thoughtfull post.....I've been holding off my response cause I've been assured by 2 more director's by e-mail that they would be posting a response also.....Would love for the remaining director's to at least give their perspective on this issue.....

    Take care
    Tony

  8. #68

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    Dec 2011
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    Oh well, So much for more director's joining in....But moving on, Again Tom thanks so much for your post. I truly appreciate my director being responsive to my concerns even if he doesn't share them. You responded by wearing your 2 hats as a director & then as a member, Let me address both of you.....

    Tom the Director said this below....
    If you are serious about this subject you need to switch from being pro-vocal to being pro-active. When we spoke you asked me, * Am I supposed to contact each member personally?*.
    well, yes, that*s how I would go about it. The thread you started, as it is, won*t get the job done. In seven pages on line you only had seven people responding to you
    .

    Tom on being pro-active I wrote a letter to the magazine back 10-25-13 that I put a copy of on this forum called "Fair Unknowns" that address's this very topic from the perspective of designing sequences that would keep the "little guy" in a fair fight...I'm still waiting for a recognition that it was even recieved.
    I do plan to make another attempt & do what you suggested by inviting participation in this thread. Hopefully I'll get a response this time.

    As to the limited reponses to this thread you referenced ...I myself wish more of the membership was more pro-active to the issues they are aware of regardless of their position. I just assume it's kinda like the elections for the directorships each time ....only a handful of members even respond...Not because they don't have opinions...But I would venture that the views & responses to this obscure thread by percentage surpasses participation in the election ballots that are sent to every member!

    Now to the forming of a commitie to accomplish my desire for the club to address what is an obvious disparity...No problem, I've been contacted by several members that have good ideas & suggestions. If after I can get Reggie to put something in the magazine I'll go about doing the commitie thing....Although I do wonder if every rule change that you guys do requires a commitie to get it done
    .

    Now to ...Tom the fellow club member said this below ...

    Now, Speaking as IAC member #1999, I can say I don*t completely agree with you. Yes, I see that the Single wing high horsepower A/C has some advantage. That advantage, however, can be a two headed snake. Advantages like higher speeds,more vertical penetration, longer lines,and 420*/sec. roll rate. I*ve had these advantages work against me on numerous occasions.The faster speeds eat the box,the long lines means more exposure to the judges.
    I will however fly the higher performance machine because you don*t have to work as hard.


    AAhhhhhh, The old to much performance is a disadvantage defense...You know of all the argument's that I have heard I guess this one is probably the best one that someone flying an unlimited mount year after year in advanced can come up with...But Tom...I appreciate that in the end you are honest that all things in the seat being equal..... the guy flying the higher API'ed mount is not working nearly as hard.....And is flying with a big advantage....and for the record you must fly the little small winged 1D at the same speeds as the unlimiteds to get any performance because of the limited wing area...Its just steady losing altitude the whole time.

    You also said.....
    Tony, Im sure you see where I*m going with this but let me tell you, the system isn*t broke. Our judges are the best in the world, trust me. I have been doing this sport sense 1972. That*s 42
    years. During that time I averaged 6 regional and 1 National contest each year. I can honestly say that during that entire time, THE BEST PILOTS TOOK HOME THE TROPHIES. Tony, it made no difference who made the plane at the bottom of the stick or how big the engine was at the end of the throttle cable..... The best pilots won!


    I never have said the system is broken....What I have said is that the IAC has not kept up with the category creep as well as equipment advancement by adopting rules to keep the "Legacy mount's" that are still advanced capable in a fair fight with the guys that like to use their pocketbook to buy more performance & park that performance in a lower category.

    Now to the Best Pilots taking home the trophies regardless of mounts they are flying .....Would you seriously argue that 2 guys of equal skill flying 2 mounts with such differing API's will have a consistant result that is not BIASED to the higher API mount.....Tom there are always "Exceptions to the rules" but the rule remains regardless of the exceptions.....I.E. The guy flying a higher performance mount will win the majority of the time [skills being equal] regardless of the quality of the judges.
    If for no other reason than presentation advantage of putting the flight in the performance zone.... and... if the members submiting the unknowns are mostly flying the unlimited mounts how can any reasonable person argue that the best pilots are winning the competitions?


    Your last point below.....
    If you make a rule that dictates to me how many years I am allowed to fly my plane in a category before I have to change either the plane or category, you*ll only see me on a golf course. If you do something like that, and I feel thats what you are hinting, this Club will disappear. The sport won*t but the club will.
    My suggestion to you is to move up to a high priced high powered monoplane. After all Tony,
    it*s the American way.


    Now were getting to the real root of why were unlikely to change anything and where I appreciate your honesty. No doubt alot of the brethren would probably collect their toys from the sandbox and go home if their advantages in advanced were minimized.....rather than move up & play in the sandbox their toy was designed for. And Tom , You like another brother in an earlier post have proven its about the money your willing to spend more than the skills you have to be competitive in the category.

    Because I believe I stand a better chance of getting something done by petitioning to get some fairness in sequence design to minimize the disparity as was the point of Giles Hendersons article a couple of magazines back as well as my original point in the "Fair Unknowns thread" thats where my efforts will be placed.
    Besides Tom I prefer to be an underdog ....after all its the american way.

    Take care
    Tony
    Last edited by flyrite; 12-14-2014 at 10:07 AM.

  9. #69

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    6719 views ......Dang them peskey web crawlers.........

  10. #70
    RetroAcro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flyrite View Post
    6719 views ......Dang them peskey web crawlers.........
    More like popcorn eaters Tony. ;-)

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