Nervous 1st-Time Airplane Buyer

[Bill Greenwood]

Bob, you may find it hard to believe, but there are CFIs who will milk a pilot, especially a new or student pilot for hours on end. The forums are full of guys who might have 30 or 40 hours and not soloed or 100 hours and still not be a pilot, Take a look at Bunkies thread below.

Some of it may be attributed to liability or what the CFI claims is his liability. Frankly I have heard of very few successful liability suits against a CFI for a pilot who trained or just did a BFR or as you would say a FR with the CFI, but was not with the CFI after that or for the incident in question. It is easy for the CFI to claim that the pilot needs more dual, "just a few more hours should do it" which is CFI talk for, "another few weeks and I can make that new car down payment".Would one sue a CFI when the lawyer fees probably amount to more than the CFIs net worth. And of course,many if not most CFIs may be honest, but there is nothing that would promote more honesty if the CFI had a financial incentative to get the student to the end of the training sooner rather than later which is the situation now.

And most of all, I don't want "Tarfu" to get with someone who wants to spend much time, at $50 per hour making a big point about what we should call a "Flight Review" that is due every 2 years.
By the way, what do you call the airplane inspection and service that is due every year for non rental private planes?

And you can learn something about flying every day,though I am not sure how much worth it is. I just flew Aspen to Boulder today, nice CAVU, light turbulence at 13,500 smooth at 15,500 and all that time I mistakenly thought I would be needed a BRF this winter. Imperfect knowledge or not, the flight seemed to go pretty well, and landed safely.

[Tarfu43]

All,

Thanks so much for all the great replies! They were awesome! It certainly gives me the encouragement to make the right decision, which is to go for it! The advice regarding a CFI and A&P is spot-on. Lucky for me that I have a CFII friend that already told me he would help get me current. And I've got the maintenance side covered; I'm an A&P, and my other buddy is an IA!
I think I was/am so nervous because I equate buying an airplane to having a kid.......and I remember how nervous I was while my wife was pregnant!
Well, my physical is in about 10 hrs from now, and shortly after that, I'll be calling the Cardinal owner. I'll post the results. Thanks again, everyone!

[Bob Meder]

Bob, you may find it hard to believe, but there are CFIs who will milk a pilot, especially a new or student pilot for hours on end. The forums are full of guys who might have 30 or 40 hours and not soloed or 100 hours and still not be a pilot, Take a look at Bunkies thread below.

Some of it may be attributed to liability or what the CFI claims is his liability. Frankly I have heard of very few successful liability suits against a CFI for a pilot who trained or just did a BFR or as you would say a FR with the CFI, but was not with the CFI after that or for the incident in question. It is easy for the CFI to claim that the pilot needs more dual, "just a few more hours should do it" which is CFI talk for, "another few weeks and I can make that new car down payment".Would one sue a CFI when the lawyer fees probably amount to more than the CFIs net worth. And of course,many if not most CFIs may be honest, but there is nothing that would promote more honesty if the CFI had a financial incentative to get the student to the end of the training sooner rather than later which is the situation now.

And most of all, I don't want "Tarfu" to get with someone who wants to spend much time, at $50 per hour making a big point about what we should call a "Flight Review" that is due every 2 years.
By the way, what do you call the airplane inspection and service that is due every year for non rental private planes?

And you can learn something about flying every day,though I am not sure how much worth it is. I just flew Aspen to Boulder today, nice CAVU, light turbulence at 13,500 smooth at 15,500 and all that time I mistakenly thought I would be needed a BRF this winter. Imperfect knowledge or not, the flight seemed to go pretty well, and landed safely.

Bill - I know, probably better than most, about CFI's that waste student's time and money. That's why I said "a good instructor." The CFI's I train get an earful about how valuable their students' time is - not just dollars spent, but just time itself. They learn that giving value will garner them more in the long run through referrals than they'll ever get from running up the meter.

Second, it's not about liability. A good flight instructor worries, first and foremost, about a student's and their passengers' safety. I, for one, never want to have to explain to anyone, particularly family and my own conscience, why something happened because I glossed something over.

As for taking time regarding "BFR" vs. flight review? No, I don't spend billable time with private pilots talking about that. In my own post, I said it really doesn't matter - it was just a mild, and I thought slightly humorous, comment about terminology. Now, if you're one of my CFI candidates, I will ask you to stop using the terms "biennial flight review" and "pilot license" (unless you're referring to an actual, foreign license). Partly out of my own pedantry, but also as a way of helping them make an impression on an inspector on one of the toughest practical tests in the system.

I guess I took umbrage because you used a very wide brush to paint CFI's. Please remember, a whole lot of us are here not to get rich (I'll turn a profit when I quit teaching), but out of the same love of aviation you have.

Oh, "required inspection", by the way...

[Bob Meder]

Tarfu - you're going to do great, so I don't need to wish you luck. Have fun and keep us posted.

[lnuss]

The forums are full of guys who might have 30 or 40 hours and not soloed or 100 hours and still not be a pilot,

While it's true that there are CFIs who will "milk" a student, there are also students who have a lot of trouble meeting standards in just 15-20 hours for solo, sometimes through being slow to learn certain things, some through attitude, some who just don't fly frequently enough. For instance I had one student who could fly the airplane just fine, and could easily get you from the practice area to the airport, but couldn't fly a pattern and get to the end of the runway without guidance (he landed just fine once you guided him to final), until I told him he'd have to quit being sloppy in the pattern or he'd never solo. Shortly after that he soloed.

There are also a very few who shouldn't be in an airplane at all -- often those don't want to quit, so run up the hours until you refuse to fly with them. I had a student who, though he could physically fly the airplane just fine, couldn't make decisions, even when to turn crosswind, base and final without asking, "Should I turn here?" or having someone tell him when to turn. Another was a physicist who just couldn't keep his attention where it needed to be, making him a hazard.

All that being said, though, most folks do just fine getting their ticket in 50-70 hours, a very few in less time.

[Frank Giger]

And I think a lot of those extended training hours are simply a mis-match between student and CFI. Not a bad CFI, mind you, but one that can't get on the same wavelength as the student (and vice-versa).

Heck, my first CFI was a great guy and has a solid track record of making pilots in the normal (50-70 hour) timespan. But I fired him after hour two, much to both of our relief. We just had different ways of expressing ourselves and doing things to the point that it was clear that it was going to take some time to figure out effective communication. At 200 USD an hour, I wasn't willing to find the key eventually, and found an old sarcastic and somewhat grumpy at times CFI that instantly jelled with me (though there are others that think he's bit abrupt and fussy).

I've referred folks to both that first CFI and the one that occasionally growled at me to my SP certificate, and am on fantastic terms with both.

[lnuss]

An excellent point, Frank -- personality mismatches certainly happen, and it's not the fault of either the CFI or the student. Sometimes it's hard to recognize, but experienced CFIs should be able to tell after a few hours with a student, in most cases.

[skyfixer8]

Bob, Up here in Northern Michigan, I call "required inspections" "critter checks". As an A&P, I have seen flight hours drop way down between annuals to as low as 3 hours. Planes are all hangered, so I just check for critters (as well as mandated items).

[Janet Davidson]

Tarfu,

How exciting! I hope the medical went smoothly

You might find a lot of like-minded & helpful folks in the Cardinal Flyers - http://www.cardinalflyers.com/home/_home.php I've met some of them, and they are a great group of enthusiasts who really care about their flying and their aeroplanes.

Have fun with that aeroplane!

[Bill Greenwood]

Inuss, I didn't write 15 or 20 hours for solo, although that should be enough for most people, and most people should have their cert by 70 hours or so and not over a 100.
Years ago when I started, 1968 at least two things were different than now. First there were more flight schools, most every big airport had one in the days before the TCA chased them away from major airports within cities.
So there was competition, if a CFI at one school did not value a student,that student could go to another school.
And I think there were more students, maybe just more people interested, or it was cheaper, or maybe the GI Bill helped.
But, in any event CFI seemed to have a different attitude toward a student solo. The solo was seen as a step when the student had basic knowledge and control of the plane, enough to fly around the local pattern and make 3 landings. It didn't mean the student knew everything or that more learning was not on tap.
I don't think all CFI s are like that now.

Bob, it has been a lot of years since I did it, but I didn't find my private flight test, or as you say, "practical" very hard.And solo is really easy, it is the same thing a student has probably done numerous times already, ( 3 landings )except this time the CFI is not in the plane.