I would like to suggest we look at this thru the eyes of an 8 year old who has never been to OSH. I got to do that this year. We all get a bit jaded, boys and girls. Airventure is a public show. Yes I am usually taking a shower, but others who have never been to the event are seeing everything for the first time. Now I will say that watching a TBM 900 says NOTHING to me and is so far from "EAA" as to be laughable, but that is another story.
Larry Nelson EAA 35011
President EAA Chapter 821
Springfield, MO
PA 30 / Cessna 195
Perhaps THAT is the issue, Larry. I'm sure it's entirely radical to suggest that the grounds be closed to non-members (unless accompanying a member) till the last Friday. Tailor the airshows and the rest of the activities to us jaded folks early in the week (sort of like a convention), and on the weekend let the public in for a 'standard' weekend of airshow. We need the public's support, but I find it less than optimal that 'my' convention airshow is tailored to them.Originally Posted by Inspector Fenwick
Ditto to the airshow catering to advertisers, i.e. TBM.
That said, thanks for getting an 8-year-old to KOSH, Larry. It must have been fun watching thru those eyes!
Jim
EAA 64315
Last edited by Jim Rosenow; 08-05-2014 at 07:10 AM.
First, I am generally supportive the the idea of devoting time to seeing the vintage airplanes fly by in parade, and the other homebuilts, too. That is what EAA is about. Personally, multiple aerobatics routines do little for me. There are many people, however, who really enjoy these...even if they don't post on this forum. Say concentrate on one or two each day, with different acts on different days leaving more time for, say multiple passes by QED. Now for the Warbirds part. I flew an L-Bird (O-2A) on Tuesday and Saturday, and was cancelled on Friday due to weather (more on that later.) The air boss has a very limited time slot for all things warbird. This past week it was typically about 50 minutes. He has a lot of different aircraft to put through the show in that limited time. Let me tell you that it is probably as exciting to see it from the air as on the ground, what with the T-33's screaming past just below us and pulling up in front of us. Each of those levels of the swirling beehive of warbirds is only 300 feet apart from the levels above and below...and these are not professional airshow pilots. Altitude deviations are common (and exciting.) Landing on 18 or 36 would be very visually satisfying for the crowd and the pilots, too! This has to be balanced by putting all of the airplanes through the show, which includes low strafing passes and lots of pyro. Therefore the air boss moves the airplanes away from show center to recover on 9/27 while other airplanes take stage center. This year, there was a plan to have the L-birds pass low over 36 (400') enroute to 27. This did not happen on Tuesday because we were running over on time. On Friday, many warbirds acts were scrubbed because of the weather. Although it was only a mildly severe thunderstorm over OSH at the time the L-birds would have launched, 1 mile north of OSH there was significant hail. The result was noted by others, but it was the best decision for reasons of safety. On Saturday, all participating L-Birds were able to do the 400' flyby, and I was able to lower my landing gear about airshow center, demonstrating the O-2s really are retract. (A common question of vistors to my plane.) Things can always be better, and each year I see improvement. Overall, I think that the air bosses do a great job, even though that might not be obvious from the ground.
Last edited by Mayhemxpc; 08-05-2014 at 08:12 AM.
Thanks for your insight from the performers perspective. There are things that go on to run a show that most of us don't know about. Weather and time are certainly big factors. As a L16 owner and pilot (war bird...sort of) I'd love to participate in a fly by at some future event but that probably won't happen. I think the flybys are most interesting to those of us who are restorers and owners and have been coming for many years (therefore probably vintage types.....insert grin ) On the other hand, those who are not 'regular' may like the aerobatics so I guess there needs to be a good balance. I'll keep coming as long as my pins hold out.
If God had intended man to fly He would have given us more money!
Not jaded; never was that interested.
From childhood I've never been interested in watching aerobatics -- just not my thing, though others enjoy it, and more power to them. I guess it's a matter of balance. Not to be a curmudgeon, but when I first went to OSH in the mid-80s, there seemed to be a lot more "normal" flying activity -- all kinds of planes flying all day long, flown by "normal" people, the owners and builders. True, the afternoon was taken by a formal airshow, but there seemed to be more of a mix of actual flying all the rest of the day. This memory may be a complete misinterpretation of reality, so I am open to being corrected. Regardless, I think it is worthwhile considering whether we would like the aspects of convention airspace use changed.
Maybe constructive input would be welcomed by Jack et al.
As to seeing through the eyes of an 8 year old, I've taken my nephews and godchildren to several OSHs, spanning ages from 4 to 11 and across several trips over the years. None of them watched the aerobatics much past the first performer of the first day -- and that was in the company of adults who would have gladly plopped down to watch just so they could plop down somewhere -- those kids can run you ragged!
Last edited by Jeff Boatright; 08-05-2014 at 01:26 PM.
For me, I liked the afternoon show better the way they used to segment it. It was showcase, warbirds, airshow, then military display. Now with it jumbled together, those with no interest in the aero have to sit through it to watch the showcase stuff. I'm guessing those interested in the aero aren't all that thrilled by slow vintage fly-bys, and those interested in showcase don't care much for the flip flops.
Monday's airshow had three separate jumper acts. One is really enough, they are all exactly the same.
Airshow highlights for me this year were the Beech 18, the RC stuff (I'm an rc guy) and the Thunderbirds were really impressive. That being said, having seen them, I don't think I'd have them back. They were brilliant, but having an un-obscured view of the action on 18-36 is more important to me. The Thunderbird show line had direct influence on my leaving Saturday without seeing my favorite Warbirds show. The ground action is just as important as the flying action, I want to see the old birds launch and recover. Thunderbirds line made that nearly impossible. Just a brief glimpse was available.
Seems back in the late 70s, there were various showcase/display flights throughout the day. There was also a time anyone who wish to go fly and made circuits around the field could do so.
The problem with the acro today is that it all looks about the same. It was formerly a great mix of the likes of Bob Lyjack in his Taperwing Waco followed but Leo Loudenslager in his BD-5J or Laser, then Bob Hoover in the Shrike or P-51. Jimmy Franklin in his modified Waco and the likes were all mixed in. Typically a showcase of flight highlighting a specific type or era took place before the formal airshow.
Seems there is still quite a mix of acts rather than having so many gyrating tumbling Extras and such.
Jim Rice
Wolf River Airport (54M)
Collierville, TN
N4WJ 1994 Van's RV-4 (Flying)
N3368K 1946 Globe GC-1B Swift (Flying)--For Sale
N7155H 1946 Piper J-3C Cub (Flying)
I liked the showcases, but they've been gone for a decade no replaced with a feeble "review" for which the vintage one was pretty much rained out anyhow. This brings up the stupidity of the departure briefing folks. Back when the flyby pattern was in effect pre-airshow on 18-36 they served a useful purpose. Now they add to the confusion and all they do is hand out what's already in the notam'd departure procedures.
Frankly, I liked this years airshow line up. To me it was much fresher than the ho-hum stuff that they've been showing for years. Yeah, Otto is corny but some of the younger acro guys are pretty neat to watch.
Frankly, I didn't see the "disaster" predicted with the T-birds. The crowds nicely kept back to the modified line. Things weren't unwieldy and in fact I aw MANY MORE children than I've seen in the airventure crowd in years. An added bonus was watching a dozen kids take their induction oath in the AF prior to Saturday's show. Even the Sunday show (despite the torrential rain) was pretty well attended.
thanks mayhemxpc for some insight into the warbrid show, much as expected and we love to see you guys flying. However with all that I still think there is room for improvement, particularly on shows like Monday where there was at least 10 minutes of nothing happening over 18/36 towards the end of the segment, but plenty of aircraft breaking off and landing on 27 that could have been on 36!
Id also rather see less of you circling in the distance over the lake, do one or two less orbits but land on 36. Although a 400ft flyby over 36L would also be good (not so good this year when the crowdlne was moved back) Id also rather see the fighters do less patterns around the lake and straffing runs if it meant there would be more time for take-off and landings on 18/36. Even upto a few years ago the T6s T28s all fighters and bombers would takeoff on 18 and land on 36 wind permitting, I don't know why this has changed.
Or on the otherhand make it policy and know that all warbird are going to take off and land on27, then those of us wanting photos can just go to 27, at least then we don't have to listen to the announcer.
I think Jim Rice has hit the nail on the head regarding all the aerobatic acts being very similar. I don't say dispense with them all just have less and more time to fly the interesting unique types we get at Oshkosh, rather than the professional airshow performers we have seen so many time before (or acts very similar)
Perspective is an interesting thing. We are not over the lake! We fly up over the line of trucks just east of 36R so that the strafing runs/low passes can proceed up the middle of 36L. We then make a steep turn reversal and are less than a half mile east of 36R on the downwind pass. I admit that it looks a lot farther out than that. Didn't think about the 400' pass being off-set by the crowd moving further back. That is a downer. Well that should not be a problem next year. The stacks are at 400', 700' and 1000' with the slower airplanes low and the faster ones on top. The other warbirds have a different flight pattern, with holding orbits at different positions resembling a giant daisy and then coming in for the low passes from different directions and altitudes. It is really quite an airborne ballet. There are two different controllers coordinating the choreography. Every year I have flown we recover on 27 (9 as a back-up) so if you want to get those good landing and takeoff pix, positioning yourself on the north edge of warbirds parking is a good choice. Chris Mayer N424AF
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