Fatal Accidents Related to the Fly-In

[rwanttaja]

At our chapter meetings we occasionally have one of our IFR type guys brief us on the ADSB stuff. Initially I wanted to go into glassy-eyed mode and daydream of low-and-slow VFR flight, but then it dawned on me that I'll be encountering more and more aircraft with it and pilots used to having it - and I'll be invisible to their magic box, as I don't have a transponder.

It's like that NOW for the NORDO folks....I even had one guy tell me, "I won't see you if you don't tell me you're there." I flew the original Fly Baby NORDO for about seven years. I even wrote an article on what I'd learned, titled, "Do-It-Yourself Stealth (And How to Survive It)". Will probably need to dust that off in a couple of years to handle the ADSB Magoos.

It's funny, the attitudes towards electronic aids. My home airfield is close to the Seattle Class B. While it's easy enough to go in and out without entering the Class B airspace, there's a bit of a "funnel effect" with airplanes up to business jets trying to sneak in below 1800 feet at the corner closest to my flield. We were having a conversation on another forum about landmarks to use to ensure one stayed out of the bad areas. One guy told us we were nuts using stuff outside the airplane, that he was going to rely on his GPS...in very busy airspace. I guess when ADSB is in place, he'll have a full-blown video game to watch. Might need industrial-strength windshield wipers, though.

Ron Wanttaja

[TedK]

The Feds should pay us to put on ADSB Out and nuclear powered Strobes.

[Frank Giger]

Ha ha ha! Funny the things one sees and hears at an uncontrolled airfield.

My personal favorite are the IFR checkpoint guys and the Ghost Tower folks.

Them: "Well Equipped Aircraft Seven Four Echo passing Victor, landing."
Me: "Say again location?"
Them: "Passing Victor at three thousand."
Me: "Okay, I'll bite - where is that from the field by direction and distance?"
Them: "....."
Me: "Say again location?"
Them, as if talking to a moron: "Ten miles south, landing three."
Me: "I'm the yellow champ in the pattern, touch and go, entering downwind."
Them, somewhat huffily: "Straight approach on the glide."



Ghost tower people, as I call them, have this one sided conversation with a tower that isn't there, including responding to things never said. Lots of Vector, Altitude and "Squawking One Two Hundred" stuff. I like 'em, as there's never any confusion where they are.

I always assume there are NORDO aircraft around. Some folks seem to think that since no radio is required at an uncontrolled airfield that they shouldn't use them, or, more generously, that it's optional. And, even in this day and time, occasionally we'll have someone land without using a radio and walk up to the map with the stick pin in it entirely too casually, look at it, and then shortly leave out, using their radio as they do.

[MEdwards]

I guess when ADSB is in place, he'll have a full-blown video game to watch.

That's the truth. I've seen a flurry of traffic south of Phoenix on my iPad via my ADS-B In receiver (when a nearby ADS-B Out equipped aircraft must have triggered the transmission). It's downright intimidating to see all those folks ahead of you. I can see people staring at their screens for long periods at a time trying to figure the best route to avoid the traffic. I can also see other people avoiding busy airspace altogether once they can see what's there.

Saw the same thing approaching Oshkosh two weeks ago, but that's a special case. There you'd have to be crazy to stare at your iPad instead of looking out the window.

Mike E

[rleffler]

That's the truth. I've seen a flurry of traffic south of Phoenix on my iPad via my ADS-B In receiver (when a nearby ADS-B Out equipped aircraft must have triggered the transmission). It's downright intimidating to see all those folks ahead of you. I can see people staring at their screens for long periods at a time trying to figure the best route to avoid the traffic. I can also see other people avoiding busy airspace altogether once they can see what's there.

Saw the same thing approaching Oshkosh two weeks ago, but that's a special case. There you'd have to be crazy to stare at your iPad instead of looking out the window.

Mike E

It was great going along the lakefront under the class b in chicago.

That's why I brought along a passenger. He was watching the traffic screens. My eyes were focused on not hitting the tail in front of me as he slowed down to 65kts as he passed ripon. Fortunately it was slow and the controller noticed me starting a turn back to ripon. ATC cleared me immediately to ripon, asked to keep my speed up (i had no problems keeping 90kts to short final) and sent the slow pokes to 27.

[cub builder]

I keep hearing pilots that have never used TIS-B complain about how pilots won't be doing anything more than staring at their screens and nobody will be looking out the windows. That couldn't be farther from the truth. I've got ADS-B in/out in one of my planes linked to my GPS. The traffic is just something else on the map. If traffic is a potential conflict it will be marked as such allowing me to de-conflict long before the other traffic is in visual range. Screen shots from a test flight with TIS-B are on my web site along with notes pointing out strengths and weaknesses of the system. Flying with ADS-B traffic, it becomes readily apparent that it is not a replacement for the mk 1 eyeballs, and is lousy if you think you're going to use it in the traffic pattern around most smaller airports (traffic falls off radar and/or you fall out of ADS-B reception range). But, when at altitude flying cross country, it gives you better situational awareness of traffic around you that you likely never would have seen before. With a potential conflict, it tells me where to look.

The closest I've come to getting knocked out of the sky was meeting another aircraft at 10,500' in the middle of nowhere flying 90° to my course. We were both VFR and at the correct altitudes for our directions. Having flown NORDO for 15 years, I think I have a pretty good outside scan going most of the time. In this case, I got a very close up look at the side of the other plane while I was maneuvering hard to miss it. I don't think the other pilot ever saw me. Lessons learned were (1) Big Sky Theory doesn't always hold true, and (2) even with a good scan, you aren't likely to see another aircraft closing at 90° to your course at a high closure rate (both of us at roughly 150 kts [not in the Cub]). Had I have had ADS-B traffic at the time, assuming the other craft had a working transponder, I would have known about the other traffic long before it became a conflict.

Cub Builder

[MEdwards]

I keep hearing pilots that have never used TIS-B complain about how pilots won't be doing anything more than staring at their screens and nobody will be looking out the windows. That couldn't be farther from the truth.

From your response, I am confident that is true in your case. I am not so sure about the pilot population in general. I think a lot of pilots will be distracted and/or distressed by it. Time will tell.

I have "used" TIS-B, though in a limited sense, in the few cases I described in an earlier post. Plus one other, returning from Oshkosh last year, where I was alerted to a crossing aircraft at my altitude in a situation very much as you described, though not so close. I intend to get ADS-B Out as soon as reasonably and financially possible so as to take full advantage of TIS-B.

[cub builder]

I think with a little use it becomes readily apparent that the altitudes are inaccurate and while it's recent data, it's not real time data, which really forces the pilot to look out the window for the traffic. If you're at an extended range from Radar or ADS-B tower, traffic appears and disappears quite a bit, so once again, you have to look outside to see where they are at. However, I do find it to be useful for deconflicting with traffic that is beyond visual range. Caveat; I fly in a very mountainous area, so deal with spotty radar and ADS-B coverage. It may be more real time-ish with fewer drop outs out in the flat lands. Right now, I still get more traffic warnings from my antique Monroy PCAS than I do from ADS-B.

-Cub Builder

[FlyingRon]

I am almost always on an IFR plan or FF. I have Mode S TIS and a Xaon but I still look out the window. My wife wondered why I was making a rather abrupt manouver last weekend but I suddenly saw chutes popping in front of me. It was after this that I heard the jump plane announce jumpers away. Nice timely call there. This is the same ass hole (at least now I know who and where he operates) that makes calls that announce that he's dumping a load of meat balls without indicating what airport or other location he's doing it at (and either leaves the frequency immediately or doesn't otherwise listen to the people who ask "Jumpers away over WHAT?"

[Mayhemxpc]

What, the meatballs don't appear on TIS? I am shocked! (Wotcha wanna bet that UAS's don't, either?)