I personally know of 2 or 3 planes without radio or electrical based here. They simply use a handheld. Simple as that. Saying people don't fly here for fun is lame. The majority of us here have planes that are for fun flying.
I personally know of 2 or 3 planes without radio or electrical based here. They simply use a handheld. Simple as that. Saying people don't fly here for fun is lame. The majority of us here have planes that are for fun flying.
If the 'typical' visitor jumps to that conclusion, then I guess he will also assume that parking on the grass adjacent to the runway and pitching a tent is also "allowed and popular year round at Oshkosh".Originally Posted by Bill Berson
Bill, you are using dubious logic to support a point you are trying to make. I understand your frustration but your argument would be enhanced if based on fact.
In any case I'm glad to see you will be spending time down at the farm (!) and hope you have a most enjoyable week with the folks who appreciate low-stress flying.
Last edited by Sam Buchanan; 07-25-2014 at 11:43 AM.
You guys can fault Bills logic here, but he does bring up a valid point. There are a lot of pilots out there that fly just for sport that don't fly with radios and are really nervous dealing with the a tower on the radio. If you have ever tried to use a hand held radio in an open cockpit plane, it's a challenge to hear or be understood. Dealing with a tower is a hindrance to a number of pilots. As to the normal work day traffic at Oshkosh, I can't comment on that. However, his point is that it would be nice if Ultralights and other non-electric sport aircraft could operate out of KOSH without the use of the tower as it would be more welcoming to that class of aircraft. I get it. I flew for 13 years and coast to coast sans electric systems and radios. I didn't even own a headset. When I got back to flying with electrics and radios, I was highly uncomfortable dealing with control towers for some time.
-CubBuilder
Well it would be nice if they could operate at many airports that they cannot. If they are flying just for sport, there are airports they cannot go into without a radio. Oshkosh is one of them. I guess I do not see the problem. Unfortunately that is the rule. The option would be to eliminate the tower so he can land there and I hope he is not suggesting that but just voicing his frustration at not being able to land there. I understand the frustration but there is not a reasonable fix for the problem.
States visited with my Piper Challenger
All I'm getting is that because it's KOSH and only because it's KOSH there should be an exception??
Because of the EAA connection, some may think of KOSH as the representative airport for non-electric and sport aircraft but the reality is outside a couple weeks in July, KOSH is just another airport. Operation numbers indicate an ATCT is required to maintain an adequate level of safety and that's why they have a tower.
There's no reason why an ultralight operator can't go to the facility and ask to have some of the rules waived so he could fly in/out in his NORDO ultralight. However, I'll bet the demand for that type activity isn't very high.
Can we stop confusing Sport Pilots, LSA aircraft, and NORDO operations, please?
They are only casually related. For instance, I'm a Sport Pilot, and my aircraft is an LSA. Whether I fly into controlled airspace has only to do with my own endorsement, not my aircraft's gross allowable weight.
A Cub or Champ can land at KOSH any day of the year (outside of AirVenture limitations due to airshows) - it only needs a radio and a pilot endorsed for operating in controlled airspace.
I think the original topic is about the grass strip in particular, not the airfield in general.
The opinions and statements of this poster are largely based on facts and portray a possible version of the actual events.
I am back from Airventure 2014 and had a great time and learned a few new things about KOSH operations. A volunteer from Pioneer Airport told me that it operates on special occasions only and with special procedures. I think this is sad that a nice grass airstrip exists that can't be used daily.
He said Pioneer Airport was the only airport within an airport in the US, but some might exist in Canada. Again, that is sad, we need grass strips at every major airport with operational procedures to allow no radio sport operations safely.
I operated for years at Birchwood Airport (20 north of Anchorage, Ak.) which has a paved main runway for GA, a special gravel/snow strip for ski planes or big tires, and the ultralights are authorized to operate off the east taxiway. These procedures are detailed in the Airman's Supplement. No tower, but very busy with flight training and over 300 airplanes based. Most pilots use CTAF. But it was determined that ultralights should not use the radio because of too much chatter. Instead, ultralights are required to stay east and avoid simultaneous parallel final approach. This has worked for some 20 years or more. It frustrates me that other airports don't accommodate all sport aircraft like this.
Since Airventure had no radio ultralight operations during the busiest week on the ultralight strip, why not year round?
I think this is important and not trivial. At Airventure 2014, the Valdez STOL was a huge hit. They replayed it again at the ultralight strip on Friday where a huge croud of about 2000 got up close to watch. Not possible to get close to runway 18.
The ultralight runway has morphed into LightSport and now for 2014 it is "Fun Zone" and includes certified Piper Cubs. All without radio control. I like this, it gets the crowds up close. It could even be expanded further to include antiques. How cool would it be to see a Jenny or Blerio fly at Airventure? Like Old Rhinebeck Aerodrome.
The normal (other than Airventure)hours for class D at KOSH is 0600-2200. The hours could probably be reduced to only the busier part of the day ( if there is a busy time). That would allow no radio operations in the calm mornings.
To set an example for promoting sport aviation, I strongly feel EAA should push for a permanent grass strip at KOSH with procedures for no radio operations.
Last edited by Bill Berson; 08-06-2014 at 09:40 AM.
Bill,
I understand your frustration, but there are so many non-radio grass strips right around Oshkosh, I cant see the justification for another. You have to remember that Kosh is pretty laid back the rest of the year. Plus I cant see the county maintaining a grass strip or being able to justify the cost. I think if you actually lived here, you would understand.
Yep, you can go into 79C or 8D1 quite easily. Neither is more than 15 miles from KOSH.
15 miles is a long walk to KOSH!
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