Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 83

Thread: Why I'm against bringing the Thunderbirds

Hybrid View

Previous Post Previous Post   Next Post Next Post
  1. #1
    Jeff Point's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Milwaukee
    Posts
    310

    Why I'm against bringing the Thunderbirds

    In his editorial in the July Sport Aviation, Jack Pelton makes the case for bringing the Thunderbirds to Oshkosh this year. As a member who has been against the idea since it was just a rumor, I tip my cap to Jack- the argument that he makes is the most convincing one I've yet seen. In essence, his argument is that big, noisy jet air shows are what get kids excited about aviation, and we need to attract more kids to aviation. It's a sound argument. I'd like to use this forum as a "letter to the editor" to tell Jack why I disagree with him.

    I'll get my main point out of the way first, since it borders on heresy. The purpose of Oshkosh is not to attract kids (or adults for that matter) to aviation. The purpose of Oshkosh is to be a gathering (convention to use the old term) of members who are already involved in aviation. We core EAA members spend the other 51 weeks of the year running local chapters, flying Young Eagles, supporting local air shows, sponsoring B-17 and Trimotor tour stops, flying more Young Eagles, doing school programs and hosting ground schools, flying still more Young Eagles, and volunteering in a hundred other ways. In other words, doing the evangelical work of EAA. These are the activities that grown participation in aviation, much more so than a week airshow in an out-of-the-way upper midwest town. These activities are local and reach a far broader audience. We do all this because we love and and are passionate about our brand of aviation.

    Oshkosh, in it's correct form, is for us, the core EAA members. It's a gathering of members who spend the other 51 weeks growing aviation and need a week for ourselves, to recharge our batteries for the next 51 weeks. It needs to be focused inwardly towards the core members, and that philosophy should guide the planning for the event. It used to be that way.

    Of course, some will think this is selfish and that we need to focus outwardly to attract others. Here's the funny part- back when EAA was focused more inwardly, we were (almost accidentally) extremely successful in attracting outsiders to come to the event. Let's face it- what we do is just so awesome that regular folks were more than willing to pay the admission price in order to get a ticket to stand with their noses against the flight line fence (remember that?) and watch us do our thing. The show wasn't for them and yet they came, in greater numbers than they do today, I might add.

    Not to get all Dr. Phil on you, but here's an analogy- parents are most successful when they love one another more than they love their kids. That relationship naturally creates a loving family environment conducive to raising good kids. We as EAA need to love ourselves more than we love other people's kids.

    Some time in the mid 90s, we began to lose our way. The focus began to shift from Oshkosh as a convention (a gathering of members) to Oshkosh as a circus (designed to maximize attendance.) From the dismantling of the flight line fence to the renaming of the convention to Airventure to a hundred large and small changes, the focus gradually shifted. As it did, EAAs relationship with it's core members became more and more strained. "I'm leaving and never bringing my airplane here again!" was an all-too common refrain heard after the circus crowds had damaged planes on the flight line where they were suddenly allowed to roam.

    Bringing the Thunderbirds is just the next step in this evolution. As sure as I am sitting here, there are core EAA members who would otherwise have flown to the show who are not going to attend this year because of the T-birds and all the changes to the event they require. Still more will come, only to be sufficiently irked that they are less likely to return in the future. Is their loss worth the small gains made by attracting a slightly larger weekend crowd of locals? I don't know how to calculate this- but I'd bet all the money in my pocket that members who come to Oshkosh tend to be more involved in their home chapters, fly more Young Eagles and do more of that EAA evangelism that is so needed. Granted it can be a chicken and egg argument, that members who do these things are more likely to come to Oshkosh, but the reverse is certainly true. I know I leave Oshkosh every year with a renewed enthusiasm that would be sorely missed if I didn't go. We need to take care of our own and nurture that EAA spirit, and when we drive core members away from Oshkosh, we damage the organization.

    These opinions, while mine, are certainly not only mine. Despite the Thunderbirds, I am still looking forward to the show. I volunteer on the homebuilt parking crew, and one of the great things about my job is that I get to meet and interact with core EAA members (any homebuilder qualifies in my book) in large numbers and get a good cross section of what members are thinking. It's a great way to get the temperature of the membership in a way that you can't get even from just a local chapter. I would invite those members of the EAA management ranks who are worried about the direction and culture of the organization to come out and work with us for a day or two. You'll learn more from these core members than you will in a whole month of executive meetings, I promise you.

    Back at the now infamous 2012 annual meeting, I was one of the long line of members who stood up to address the board. The gentleman who spoke before me told that board that he had built an airplane and flown it to 32 consecutive Oshkosh shows, and was planning to not come back next year. He proceeded to expand on the reasons why. I applaud him for doing so, but for every person who takes the time to air their grievances on a public forum like that one (or this one) many times that number will simply vote with their feet. Any member of management would not have been caught off guard by the sentiments expressed at that meeting had they spent an afternoon with me talking to core members.

    By the way, I spent my time at the mic warning the board that they were in danger of loosing the support of their volunteers and what that could mean to the organization. When the meeting broke, the only board member who came to seek me out to discuss this further was a rookie class 3 director by the name of Jack Pelton. So I know you get it, Jack, you understand the culture and EAA has made great advances under your guidance these last couple of years. But I'm afraid you are just wrong about the Thunderbirds.
    Jeff Point
    RV-6 and RLU-1 built & flying
    Tech Counselor, Flight Advisor & President, EAA Chapter 18
    Milwaukee, WI
    "It All Started Here!"

  2. #2
    FlyingRon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    NC26 (Catawba, NC)
    Posts
    2,629
    There's a split purpose to Airventure (and the name even implies what that is). The show is not just the annual convention of EAA members, it is *THE* money making event for both the EAA and the EAA foundation. As a result we are stuck enduring a few commercial opportunities that are, as you note, disharmonious with the actual mission of the association. Frankly, the Blues or Tbirds are a whole lot better than the stupid Shockwave jet truck or even, in my opinion, the stupid-assed acts like the Masters of Destruction.

    We'll have to see what impact the T-Birds actually cause. Frankly, in the past few years the airplane arrival has been mixed to begin with, and a substantial number of people arrive and depart before Friday anyhow. Frankly, I was at Sun-n-Fun this year when the Blue's performed and there were changes there as well. Frankly, I didn't see much of an adverse impact (and that's a field where people day-trip in and out more than camp like Oshkosh) but they did clear out almost half of the Lakeland version of Scholler for the Blue's performance.

    We'll have to see. After this summer's show we can reevaluate. Either gripe how it could have been handled better or you can say "I told you so" and we'll know not to do that again.

  3. #3
    gbrasch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    530
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Point View Post
    I. Let's face it- what we do is just so awesome that regular folks were more than willing to pay the admission price in order to get a ticket to stand with their noses against the flight line fence (remember that?) and watch us do our thing. The show wasn't for them and yet they came, in greater numbers than they do today, I might add.
    That is a nice memory, being a "member" and walking through those gates, leaving the non-aviators behind the fence.
    Glenn Brasch
    KRYN Tucson, Arizona
    2013 RV-9A
    Medevac helicopter pilot (Ret)
    EAA member since 1980
    Owner, "Airport Courtesy Cars" website.
    www.airportcourtesycars.com
    Volunteer Mentor www.SoAZTeenAviation.org

  4. #4

    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Omro, WI
    Posts
    202
    Quote Originally Posted by gbrasch View Post
    That is a nice memory, being a "member" and walking through those gates, leaving the non-aviators behind the fence.
    A few of us non-aviators snuck through that fence, because we liked airplanes and couldn't afford to pay the price of memebership to get close to them. My first Oshkosh was in 1991, main reason I went was to see the F-117. Had no idea that one needed to be a member to even get close to the airplanes after paying to get on the grounds, and I think it was like $25 to become a member back then, which I didn't have, so I snuck onto the flightline to see the plane I drove up there to see.

    I am member now and still a non-aviator that loves airplanes, and I am glad the Thunderbirds are going to be here. I love all aircraft, from jets to ultralights, and think all should be included in the greatest aviation event in the US.

  5. #5

    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Posts
    10
    I was happy to hear they were coming until the details of the intrusion came to light. I usually don't venture too far from my volunteer location on Friday or Saturday because I don't like being in crowds. I suspect departures from homebuilt and vintage parking are going to spike Friday morning. I know I woudn't want my airplane in the middle of the mob that's going to be concentrated west of the new burn line. Since we weren't consulted, I guess we'll see what happens.

  6. #6

    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Posts
    10
    Well, we saw what happened.. from comments from those that got kicked out of south parking area and those that left Friday because they were ticked-off about the prospect of being kicked out, not good. Pelton was all about the gate receipts and how full the parking lot was. The EAA members who got kicked out should be compensated. The performance took an hour, but they were probably only in front of the crowd 5 minutes. BFD.

  7. #7
    I thought there were more aircraft than ever early in the week and an awful lot of departures on Thursday and Friday. Never seen the homebuilt area so quiet as when we walked thru there Friday late morning. I spoke to a lot of people with aircraft during the week and not one was positive about the thunderbirds coming. What really surprised me though was that the Thunderbirds arrived Thursday, taking up another 45 min of airshow time, when something better could have been flying. We saw them as we walked out to go to the parking lot and drive to the seaplane base, they seemed to be flying all over the exhibition area, over the crowds, over the businesses on the east side. So how come that was allowed, but on Friday onwards so many areas had to be evacuated, crowd lines moved back etc. Seems very double standards??!! Or doesn't it matter if they crash on the exhibit buildings when its not an official show? Oh well at least we weren't disrupted on Thursday and could still go to the south 40!
    I left before their show on Friday, but was told it was very long and not much time with the aircraft actually infront of the crowd, just as hatz672 commented

  8. #8

    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Omro, WI
    Posts
    202
    Thursday when they came in it was explained that they were establishing their visual ground reference points. The reason for not having to move the crowd line then was they were not doing "aerobatic maneuvers" at that time. I saw the show on both Friday and Sat, and there were not any long lulls between maneuvers than any of the other formation acts I saw those days. Between the 4 ship diamond formation and the 2 solos, they had something in front of show center most of the time, with maybe a 30 second pause between a pass of either the 4 ship group or the solos. Only time it was a bit longer was when they all formed up for the 6 ship formations.

  9. #9
    Fastcapy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    KOSH
    Posts
    54
    Just saw the numbers. Mon-Fri attendance was up 5%. Sat and Sun the attendance was up 20%. As I have said before. I have lived within 10 miles of Oshkosh my entire life, and it has been many, many years since I have heard the people of the area so excited about AirVenture. Including at least 20 people I personally know would told me they bought tickets for Sat. These people have never been out there or hadn't been out there in 15+ Years.

    In a dwindling hobby like ours, getting people out on the grounds to learn more about general aviation is a huge plus in my book.
    Last edited by Fastcapy; 08-05-2014 at 01:37 PM.

  10. #10
    rwanttaja's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    2,951
    Well-written, Jeff.

    I think EAA is suffering from "boiled frog" syndrome. As Jeff says, it started out as, basically, a members-only event. But, over the years, it gradually became more. And, as appealing to a wider attendance base caused more people to come, more investment (both financial and emotional) went into supporting the larger and larger crowds. If the show got pared back to a members-only event again, there's a LOT of infrastructure wasted, and a lot of vendors wouldn't come ("you promised me 400,000 potential customers, there were only 50,000"). Both would cost EAA a ton of money, and that would cripple the organization.

    EAA can't go back, not easily. EAA depends on the Airventure income to keep it at the current level. A downsized Airventure *would* result in a downsized EAA, and controlling such a downsizing would be tricky. One wrong decision, and it's bankrupt. Could EAA, as an organization, give 150,000 homebuilders the current level of technical support and perform the current vital advocacy in Washington DC if it were again run by a couple of volunteers in someone's basement? I don't think so....

    The obvious riposte to this is, "Well, EAA shouldn't be as big as it is. It doesn't need that big headquarters, it doesn't need that big staff, it doesn't need the museum, it doesn't need Pioneer Airport, it doesn't need six huge permanent pavilions, etc."

    And that may be true. The problem is, EAA has all those things. And downsizing isn't as easy as putting an ad on "Barnstormers". Remember the Red Queen in "Alice in Wonderland": "It takes all the running you can do to remain in the same place."

    I think having the Thunderbirds will be fine if EAA doesn't make a habit of it. I think it'll make the 2014 show special, but they probably don't want to cause the show-grounds and member upsets every year. It'll bring in more of the non-flying public, and what they see might tend to make them want to come back next year, even without the Thunderbirds. Have a military team every ten years or so....

    Ron Wanttaja

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •