Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 11 to 16 of 16

Thread: Wheel Langing Question, Please

  1. #11

    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    2,575
    SSmdive, As for as teaching over the phone, sure I'd love to be flying and teaching my friend with my J3, but it is in the shop and I am not a CFI and he needs the sign off. So we are doing the best we can. I was not at the other airport to see his landings when he had problems or thought he had problems. He may in fact have done well enough, He is a very intense and dedicated young man and wants to and working hard to an airline career. Already has muti rating. He may be putting too much pressure on himself.

    He has switched airports and CFIs now, he was trying to take advantage of bargain pricing at the first one. I haven't talked to him since he has flown with the second CFI.

    We are working with what we have, don't have any great grass runways or a Cub. He'll get it,I think.

    Interestingly when you talk to people about learnig in a tailwheel plane, there is much emphasis on rudders and keeping the nose straingt. But he hasn't mentioned any problem with that, it is pitch and elevator that is the harder part.
    This is just like my flying. I have about 1500 hours of tailwheel time, in 9 different planes, and rarely is rudder pedal and yaw control my problem. In 34 years of flying, I have only put a wheel off the runway edge about 3 times and 2 of those had a mechanical part to the problem. I am not sure how many bad tailwheel landings I've made, certainly more than 3, and it is virtually always the flare and touchdown part that is the hardest.
    That is one reason that I prefer 3 point as the plane is done flying at that point and you are not trying for such a delicate balance of factors.
    I did have some really good training when I stated out in tailwheels and it has served me well. I might even go take a lesson wheel landings just to review soon.
    Last edited by Bill Greenwood; 06-04-2014 at 07:16 AM.

  2. #12
    cub builder's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    North Central AR
    Posts
    456
    There are a couple of issues I read here. First off a CFI that only teaches one kind of landing for tailwheel isn't much of a CFI. I'd ditch him right away. While I am not a CFI, I have taught tailwheel to a number of pilots, then sent them for a ride with a CFI for their endorsements. I always teach three point landings first. That's how nose dragger pilots are used to landing so all they have to concentrate on is directional control. Additionally, if one muffs a wheel landing and gets a good bounce, the three point landing will be your recovery to save the landing, so it's best to learn your recovery landing first.

    Wheel landings generally are a smoother and more controlled landing when properly executed, so let's concentrate a little on technique. When one is learning wheel landings, they typically want to land the plane when and where they are ready, not when the plane is ready, so students tend to want to force the plane onto the pavement, often times by planting the mains. That almost always ends with a good bounce. As pointed out earlier, the wings are still flying and the inertia of the plane behind the landing gear is downward. This lowers the tail and increases the angle of attack of a flying wing, so typically results in a good bounce and balloon.

    A better technique is to learn proficiency at three point landings first. Then continue to do the same, except allow the mains to sink and touch the pavement just before the wing stalls, but slowed down and in a nose up attitude. That is a properly executed wheel landing. The only difference is that rather than sucking the stick all the way back once the plane touches down, he may want to add a slight amount of nose down with the stick to keep the mains planted. As previously mentioned, flying down the runway 6" off the ground is great practice for this.

    With the spring gear on a Citabria, the spring rebound loves to bounce you back into the air if you have a bit too much speed or your AOA is a bit too low (same thing). Cross winds will actually make it a bit easier to land. Let's look at why. When executing a wheel landing in a crosswind, you should have one wing down into the wind. That means you will only touch with one wheel and only have the rebound from one spring. The rebound from the spring gear will attempt to bounce that one wheel back into the air, but since that force is off to the upwind side of the plane that energy tends to push the upwind wing (currently down into the wind) up and allow the downwind wheel to just kiss the ground resulting in a smooth landing. The same technique can be used with no wind conditions by slightly lowering one wing to touch that main first and using the rebound energy to roll the other wheel on.

    At my home airport, go rounds are not a realistic option, so once one touches the ground you are committed to landing and stopping (one way in, one way out, high altitude airport). I typically use wheel landings as described above. With a bounced wheel landing, I'll switch to recover the landing with a three point. Proficiency in both is important and I would not recommend an instructor that doesn't teach that way.

    -CubBuilder
    Last edited by cub builder; 06-05-2014 at 08:16 AM.

  3. #13
    One of the very nice things about the Citabria is the view over the nose. Not all aircraft (with the little wheel in the proper position) have such a good view.

    If the pilot uses the top of the cowling positioned to just underline the intended point of touchdown during final, and when just short of that point transition to placing the top of the cowl to underline a point at the end of the runway, this sight picture helps tremendously in making good wheel landings. I may have not explained it very well, but a good instructor will be able to guide the aviator to make excellent wheel landings using the nose as a reference.

    Unfortunately, in other aircraft the view is totally blocked by engine/cowl/fuselage and you have to develop other sight or butt references!

  4. #14

    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    12
    Quote Originally Posted by WLIU View Post
    A CFI who says that wheel landings are easier is showing his inexperience. I am sure that he knows the FAA guidance, but your friend will be better served with a CFI that has several hundred hours of tailwheel experience in a variety of airplanes.

    First, as you likely know, three point landings allow the airplane to be placed on the runway at the slowest speed practical. So the usual syllabus starts with those. The student gets to see the visual picture of the 3 point attitude, learns how to make the airplane absolutely straight on the runway, and the airplane contacts with minimum energy, which means that it heads for the weeds more slowly when the student does not get it right. The last factor gives the instructor pilot more time to apply a correction before a disaster occurs. The flip side of that is that an instructor pilot sitting in the back has a much more restricted view of the action and so needs to really have a good seat of the pants feel for the airplane. The current CFI likely does not have that and so wants the tail up for a better view. Your CFI is likely using this visual crutch to justify his/her training approach.

    Wheel landings require a higher speed touchdown. The airplane has more energy to bounce and dive for the weeds. This makes it harder, not easier, for the new tailwheel pilot.

    When I do wheel landings, my mental image is of "painting" the wheels onto the runway. As mentioned above, you can try to fly down the runway and not touch the main wheels. Try to find the slowest speed that allows this. Should be about 10mph above your normal 3 point landing speed.

    Crosswinds complicate everything. So start out on days with the wind as closely aligned with the runway as possible. As you know, the fuselage has to be straight down the centerline of the runway and a wing must be dipped so that there is zero sideways drift. This is true for both 3 point and wheel landings. Once you get the hang of wheel landings it can be fun to roll on the upwind wheel for a while before lowering the tail.

    In a wheel landing, many airplanes will need just a little (emphasize little) forward stick to hold the wheels on the ground. You are at an airspeed that has the airplane still flying with its wheels on the ground. You let the airplane slow and then fly the tail down to the ground. If you start to lower the tail at too high a speed you will lift off and be flying again.

    Why do we do wheel landings? On really windy days, we need the rudder to keep straight on the runway. In the 3 point attitude the fuselage blanks some of the rudder and we have less control. Plus, the slower we are, the more we are affected by gusts. So if we have enough runway, we fly a higher airspeed on approach and touch down because we know that the wind is lowering our ground speed and we keep the tail up so that we have as much rudder control as the airplane can give us. My personal rule is the higher the wind, the higher my tail is on touchdown.

    A long time ago, a Provincetown-Boston Airlines (PBA) DC-3 took a couple of tries to get the main wheels down onto the runway at Provincetown on a really really windy day. As the pilot rolled down the runway with his tail in the air, he realized that it was too windy to put the tail down and successfully taxi to the terminal. Pushed the throttles forward and hopped over to Boston.

    Hope this helps. If you can find a CFI with 4 digits of tailwheel time in his or her logbook, your friend should move up the learning curve much faster.

    Best of luck,

    Wes
    N78PS
    Very good answer in my opinion. Gives an explanation on the usefulness of wheel landings, I like the "stronger wind higher tail" approach...every condition must be faced with the most adequate technique, and such is the one that gives the PIC more time and posibilities to correct a not so good initial judgement about the combination of capabilities of the AC and him/herself.

  5. #15

    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    1,609
    In a tail dragger, to me wheel landings are simple. I actually like them. FLY the airplane. Even on the ground do not get into your mind you are NOT flying the airplane for you are. Keep your speed up a little more on wheel landings then you would on a three point landing. If you are going the same speed as a three point landing you will be holding the tail up to do a wheel landing. This lowers the nose. If you are just a couple inches off the ground when you do this you will get a bounce. Raise your speed a little and fly her onto the ground keeping the tail up level and wings level. Then slowly slow down and lower the tail after your mains touch the runway sometimes so soft you do not even know you are on the ground.

    No better flying then in a tail dragger. Fun level last longer in my book anyway.

    Tony

  6. #16

    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    1,609
    I own another airplane and wheel landing should never be done in this airplane. The elevator still has authority when the rudder does not. So if you do a wheel landing you could very easy ground loop. So the tail stays on the ground during a landing or it MUST be three pointed in order to reduce the risk of ground loop. On take off the tail stays on the ground until the same speed you would be doing a three point landing or around 43 - 45 mph. Once this speed is reached the tail can be picked up..But not until that speed is reached.

    This student needs to find another CFI.

    Tony
    Last edited by 1600vw; 06-08-2014 at 08:23 AM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •