Change is good??

[raytoews]

So I typed in oshkosh365 like I usually do and I am directed to EAA.org. Tried several times and the same so I finally figured it out and here I am.

What prompted the change?

What I really wanted to talk about is the article in AVWEB by Rick Durden about spins and shallow turns in the circuit.

The article intimates that shallow turns in the circuit are taught to be done with the rudder, which got me thinking.

I was flying with a friend, newly minted pilot and he was doing his turns in the circuit with the rudder.

I questioned him and he told me he had been taught to do it that way.

Is that what they are teaching now?

Wow, the airplane should ALWAYS be pointed into the relative wind and the rudder is only there to insure that?? No?

Turning final with the rudder seems really dangerous to me, would we really be teaching that now??

Ray

[FlyingRon]

The Oshkosh 365 forums were atrocious. Slow and low functionality. VBulletin is pretty much the standard in internet forum software and works much better.

Shallow turns can be accomplished with the rudder. Most planes are stable enough to enter a coordinated turn when you do that gently (just as many planes will fly coordinated with gentle turns without rudder input). It teaches you to avoid more radical control inputs. Many instrument instructors teach that for tracking the localizer as well. If someone is suggesting turning 90 degrees with the rudder, they're crazy (unless you're flying very WIDE patterns).

However if I'm reading the same article as you seem to referring to, Rich doesn't recommend that and takes an equally strong opposition to the practice as you do. Moreover I don't believe he suggests that anybody teaches that way. I have no idea who your friend was learning from.

[raytoews]

I understand the need for rudder turns, formation flying, a glider following the tow plane, holding a course etc.

Rich mentions it in his article and it triggered my experience.

Which leads into the next phase of the training: Explain that the myth of making only shallow turns in the pattern or on landing approach is a killer. It's better to roll into a 45-degree bank when turning final rather than trying to rudder the airplane around in a shallow bank. The stall speed does not go up all that much in a 45-degree bank; it's only the angles beyond that where it curves upwards dramatically. Ruddering the airplane around means uncoordinated flight, which means seriously increased drag, which increases the risk of a stall.

I agree with him, a 45 bank co-ordinaed turn is better than ruddering the plane around the corner

I have run into this twice, with two different new pilots, they were taught to do the turns to base and final with the rudder,,, which kind of freaked me out.

I know that public education is always coming up with some goofy new teaching techniques but I thought aviation was immune from that?

Is there a flight instructor who can chime in and correct or confirm this for me?

Ray from Canada.

[Frank Giger]

Weird.

This must be an instructor-by-instructor thing, because I was taught that every maneuver is coordinated by rudder and stick simultaneously.

Turning base to final using only the rudder sets up a slip. The nose might be pointed at the runway, but that's not the direction the plane is going. They must be teaching huge patterns, too.

[Bob Dingley]

Ray, I totaly agree with you. I was taught by an old school instructor and he would always correct clumsy rudder use. When I took up helos and gliders, those instructers also were picky about footwork..


I dropped into a small airport in Ga a while back and had a nice chat with the FBO. He liked my ride, a Luscombe 8A, and that got him going on the CPT school that he ran up in SC during the "Big One." He said that he had 75 Luscombes and they were good trainers. However, practicaly all the accidents were the classic stall-spin turning base to final. "Always out of trim and too much rudder" he said.


I checked my 8A POH and the picture of the stock panel had no T&B or inclinometer. I assume the the earlier WW2 models had none either. Hardly anyone today flies without a slip-skid. Gliders at least have a string taped to the windshield. There is no excuse for this kid stuff in the 21st century.


When did Durden's article appear on Avweb?


Bob

[lnuss]

This must be an instructor-by-instructor thing, because I was taught that every maneuver is coordinated by rudder and stick simultaneously.

You were taught correctly, especially when close to the ground (i.e. pattern work, etc.). There are some older aircraft (older= ailerons travel same amount up and down) where adverse yaw in slow flight is strong, and the aircraft rolls handily with rudder input, but it's not coordinated and is asking for trouble. And newer aircraft (newer= ailerons have differential travel, i.e. a lot more up than down) will often let you get away with aileron-only turns, especially at or near cruise speed, but that's not a good practice when low and slow, either.

That being said, it's good to be able to turn with rudder only (and elevator, of course), but that's generally only advisable with some altitude, since mistakes need altitude for recovery. I've always taught students how to turn with rudder only in slow flight (Cubs, etc. at MCA have minimal aileron effectiveness and generate huge adverse yaw), but I've also cautioned them that this is only for doing at altitude, and it's primary use, for me, is to teach how the aircraft responds to various controls, along with rocking the wings with aileron only, "dutch rolls" (a misnamed coordination exercise) and other things.

[Bill Berson]

Weird.

This must be an instructor-by-instructor thing, because I was taught that every maneuver is coordinated by rudder and stick simultaneously.

Turning base to final using only the rudder sets up a slip. The nose might be pointed at the runway, but that's not the direction the plane is going. They must be teaching huge patterns, too.

I think you meant using only rudder sets up a skid, not slip.
This topic is very confusing to many pilots.
It would take a whole book to explain it properly (Stick and Rudder by Langweishe)

My condensed advice is: "Beware the rudder, it starts spins and stops spins. So avoid starting turns with rudder but please use the rudder to unbank and end the turns."

Langwieshe explains: Pilots rudder the turn to final to avoid banking, then while holding rudder they unbank with full opposite aileron.... See the problem?
The spin occurs while unbanking.

[lnuss]

So avoid starting turns with rudder...

Be aware that with some aircraft you must lead with rudder to get a coordinated turn.

[Bill Berson]

Be aware that with some aircraft you must lead with rudder to get a coordinated turn.

Some gliders might need to hold some rudder while in the turn to be coordinated. But I believe the best practice is always to enter the bank for turning with both rudder and aileron together.
In the case of unbanking (from a turn that has gone bad and is developing into a spin) it would be best to avoid aileron use since a spin is aggravated by the ailerons while trying to unbank. So to unbank, I use extra rudder.

[lnuss]

Not just gliders, Bill, but many older aircraft, especially when slow, will need some rudder while in the turn -- and it's probably a different amount between right and left, not to mention changing with bank angle when maintaining level flight.

As to using rudder only when leveling the wings, ailerons only aggravate problems if they are misused -- I'd still suggest using coordinated rudder and aileron which, in some aircraft, requires leading with the rudder, rather than slopping it around with the rudder. It's not difficult if you know your aircraft and pay attention.

And the 45º bank mentioned several posts back isn't great, either -- just continue the turn at a more reasonable bank angle or go around.

Of course people get away with a lot of things, most of the time...