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Thread: What really "killed" General Aviation

  1. #21

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    I have a different perspective on this. I would agrue that the need for a third class medical has killed the utility of private aircraft. It certainly has for me. In 43 years of flying, I've had six aircraft, and I used them for business travel and personal travel to the tune of 8000+ hours. I live in Ohio, and I found that for almost any destination east of the Mississippi river, I could beat the airlines every time, and I could set my own schedule. Also, I frequently could find an airport closer to my destination than the nearest commercial airport. For personal travel, because my airport is just 15 minutes from my home, I could get there quickly and in the air in no time at all. In my experience, Interstate highways didn't allow me to get places faster in a car than I could in my own aircraft. For example, Cleveland and Columbus are both 2.5 to 3 hours from my home in a car. In my aircraft I could get there in less than an hour! My airplanes were equipped for IFR so weather was not a problem. I've flown all over the world in my own aircraft, Europe, South America, the North Pole and Siberia among other places, so you can see I've found private aircraft good vehicles for getting places. At age 72, I started to wonder if I could pass future medicals, and I wasn't going to take a chance and get turned down and therefore be grounded for the rest of my life, so I let my medical lapse and now I'm constrained by the limitations of LSA aircraft, i.e., no IFR, no night flying, reduced cruise speeds, etc., etc. I'm not ready to quit flying, but because of the requirement for a medical, my options have certainly been curtailed. I must say I fail to see the logical in not allowing me to keep flying an airplane in which I have thousands of hours and that is equipped for IFR, but it is O.K. for me to fly a somewhat underpowered airlane with limited capabilities in which I have almost no time at all. The mess we have now flying commercially with security hassels, crowded planes, too small seats, cancelled and delayed flights, have driven me to my car except for destinations that are really far off. The comfort of my car compared to commercial airline makes the additional travel time worth it. So, the car didn't replace my own airlpanes, but the car often seems a better alternative to the airlines. Get rid of the requirement of a medical for private flying and my experience is that, for me, general aviation beat all other methods of transportation hands down. With the cost of fuel going up, the loss of the ability to really use your airplane for travel because of the loss of IFR capability because pilots shy away from the specter of a failed medical, along with the increased restricted airspace from things like pop-up TFRs and expanding Class B airspace, and the attraction of private flying becomes questionable. I'll still make my $50 hamburger flights, but I sure miss the freedom and utility I had not that many years ago.

  2. #22

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    Time is much more than money

    Access to aviation is all about time, something that we can't make more of. If it be a CEO making $20M/year ($10K/hr) ... yes, business jets make business sense or they wouldn't buy/lease/charter them ... or you or I, we all only have 24 hours in a day. Very, very few people buy new airplanes solely to fly to the $100 hamburger.

    Ownership is also an issue of flight hours per year. If you fly more than 100 hrs/year, buy an airplane. If you fly ~50-100 hrs/year, share an airplane. If you fly less, charter the plane. All the fractionals will give you the break-over points. IMHO, there isn't anyone in the world that doesn't want more time, whether it be to make more money or to spend that time with family and friends. Blue on Top, Ron

  3. #23
    bwilson4web's Avatar
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    I had a Cherokee 140, 1976-1980 but one day, I had to choose between wife, plane, and financial sanity and gave up the plane and all flying. I loved flying that plane but sometimes hard decisions have to be made and I still have my wife. Still, I never forgot the dream, the joy of flight and even bought the plans for a homebuilt that met my expectations.

    Fast forward to a week ago and I have an opportunity to buy a daylight, VFR, two seater. I have no illusions that this plane is anything more or less than an aerial motorcycle and just as impractical. But it connects to something I loved to do just for the joy of doing it.

    Six years ago, we replaced a Camry with a used Prius. Once again, I connected with the joy and disciplines of not just reaching a destination but enjoying the trip. I have Prius projects but these pale compared to my anticipation of this play-plane . . . a play-safe plane. This assumes I don't find a 'show stopper' but I'm going into this with eyes wide open.

    I understand the joy of a 2,000 hp Mustang; twisting the sky and earth around a 200 hp Pitts; sailplane solace, and; solid predictability of a four-seater cross country. We're not just 'destination' driven but the trip itself is the reason for going. We seek the reward of dealing with the 101 variables and trade-offs that make up flight.

    Hybrid electric sales run about 2% and wax and wane with the price of gas. General aviation is another, small minority joy. Gosh darn, what a shame hybrids and flying aren't more popular but also relief. Not everyone is 'flight qualified' nor ready for a fuel efficient car and that is the world we live in. As long as we, however few we may be, enjoy flying and aren't broke, there will be a general aviation.

    Bob Wilson

  4. #24
    Eric Witherspoon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Blum View Post
    Ownership is also an issue of flight hours per year. If you fly more than 100 hrs/year, buy an airplane. If you fly ~50-100 hrs/year, share an airplane. If you fly less, charter the plane.
    I'd say the break point could be less than that - in particular for the kind of stuff Bob Wilson was talking about - and especially in particular if it's a homebuilt. I built my Sonex. So you say, what else could I have done with that money? Well, in this economy, almost certainly LOSE some of it. Meanwhile I've got an airplane that can quite likely be sold for what I have in it. Two reasons for that is in selling it, I'm giving away 1300+ hours of labor FOR FREE, and it costs more now to build than what it cost me. So unless I fly the wings off it (burn way, way into the engine life, so the engine itself is becoming more of a liability than an asset), I've got the airplane itself at no cost.

    Then the other main costs are hangar, insurance, fuel, oil changes, and tires. Really. That's about it. Ok, Ron may have a financial point based purely on the dollars per hour, but I've got a place to GO - my hangar. Where I often talk with the other people out there about their airplanes. What they're fixing; what they're upgrading; where they've gone; where they are going. And same about me. Who's got some parts painted - who did the work and what they thought of it. All kinds of stuff like that. Then also - I'm not on ANYBODY's schedule. I can go out there, day or night - anytime. My hangar is close enough that (here's the big secret) - I can go out there BEFORE WORK, get a quick 20-30 minute flight in, and still only be in the office an hour later than usual. This works out great while the air is cool and calm just after sunrise. The FBO isn't even OPEN before I've come, flown, and gone.

    Other benefits of it being mine-all-mine is - I know exactly where it's been, what it's been through, the condition of everything - when everything was or wasn't last replaced - any little things that are unique to this particular airplane. Not just one "on the line" that is going to have who-knows-what surprise for me next time I try to fly it.

    Oh, I rented. For 20 years I rented. I'm not going to say I've seen it all, but I've seen more than I wanted to. Fuel topped off when I'd prefer a little less weight on board, electrical systems going up in smoke - IFR, at night. Engine quits (at least that one was in the pattern). Com radios ending their service lives - during my flight... Seat back breaking OFF (fortunately that was just before engine start and not in flight). Man, rentals - hmmm... Not to mention schedules being bumped, booked, confused, or one way or another not available when I wanted.

    I have found there's a LOT of value in what you get by owning your own that can't be put purely into dollars.

    Good discussion on this thread.
    Murphy's 13th: Every solution breeds new problems...

    http://www.spoonworld.com

  5. #25

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    Eric: For the most part, I agree with what you've said. I will say that experimentals/homebuilts are in a different category than production airplanes, though ... for several reasons. Labor in homebuilts (as you mention) is an act of love (and free) for what you are doing and learning. It is hard to feed, clothe and have health care for production workers based on that, though. The flight characteristics are different, too (and I am not commenting on which is better or worse). Noise levels, comfort, safety/crash-worthiness and baggage volumes/allowances are all different, too. We all have to learn to appreciate and promote all facets of aviation so we can all grow together.

  6. #26

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    We all have to learn to appreciate and promote all facets of aviation so we can all grow together.
    QFT.

    I think we're seeing that more and more; as there are fewer pilots hanging about the FBO the drive for cliques has all but disappeared.

    The guy flying the twin that's loaded with everything modern and landed IFR after a business trip chats up the Champ pilot that was doing touch and goes just for the pleasure of it as a peer at our local airport, for example.

    It's common knowledge that I'm building an airplane, and the Old Guy Pilots that would never, ever touch an experimental aircraft and blanch at the idea of anything less than a certified engine ask a lot of questions about it; not in the critical sort of way, but out of interest. They think I'm all sorts of bugnuts for building an open cockpit biplane in my back yard, mind you, but it's always with the best intentions that discussions on safety, how things are done to solve problems, how maintenance is done, etc. are carried out.

    They've also proved invaluable in raising issues I hadn't even contemplated, and a few great ideas.
    The opinions and statements of this poster are largely based on facts and portray a possible version of the actual events.

  7. #27

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    The problem I always found where I live (in the context of Aviation for transport) is that the majority of airfields were never anywhere usefull. Sure I could fly to the airfield of a town but then I'd either have to get a taxi or a rental car to get me from the airfield to where I wanted to actually be, far easier to just take my own car and go direct in the first place. The other thing is the endless housing sprawl that's killed off several airfields that I once might have flown to and makes it harder for new flying fields to be established and forces them further and further away from the towns.
    When I learnt to fly it was about a 15 min drive from home to the airfield, now the closest aerodrome for me to get to now is 40 mins away with the next two after that and hour and an hour half drive respectively.. My cars just outside.

    The nearest available hangerage I could get for my aircraft when I owned it was 2 hrs drive each way. Even with the greatest passion in the world after a few yrs of aircraft ownership the 4 hrs of driving I had to do for maybe and hr or so of actual flying just became too much of a chore. If I'd forgotton to take something in the car that I'd needed then the entire day was a total loss.

    We had a mate who owned a farm property far out of town. He was a flyer and kept a paddock clear for us to fly up to visit him, that beat driving hands down but that was when we had access to an airfield 15mins from home. Once my own aircraft was a 2hr drive away and to get to my mates place only around 2hrs 40 drive from my home, flying to visit stopped. It was far easier to drive and we could visit for longer as we could drive home in the dark.

    Communities and councils have to be airminded to support aviation and now the darn land developers have such a toehold into everything there's more value in selling off the land for an airfield and putting houses on it.

  8. #28

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    I think that the issue of interstate highways is a very good one. Ultimately there are two reasons to fly: for enjoyment or to get something done (i.e. make a business trip). As has been pointed out already there are many competing options in the "get something done" category. Jet's, freeways and so forth. I imagine that in Alaska the equation is very different though. I'm sure that the lion's share of the get it done flying is done by commercial pilots and as such the costs, routes and so forth are defined by the market and I don't think that case applies to this discussion.

    For non-commercial pilots in the contiguous United States I would think that a significant percentage of flying is done for recreational purposes. Flying is a fairly expensive recreation which puts it out of the reach of a lot of people but it's not impossibly expensive. I just ran some numbers yesterday and concluded that it will cost me a total of about $10,000 by the time I have my PPL. I expect that with annuals, hangers fees and insurance my Tripacer costs about $3500 a year just sitting on the ground. Add $45 an hour for fuel in the air. That's a lot, in fact it's too much, for many people, taking them out of the mix. They might, for example, take up motorcycling instead. These guys and gals may be some of our best candidates for new pilots though. Of course there are those to whom my meager expenses are nothing but there are also many other activities competing for their $$$. Boating and RVing come to mind, both of which are much easier to get into. Many people who many have the means just don't want to work that hard.

    I was actually building a front engine dragster and after taking a drag racing school (http://www.ericmarsh.info/Nostalgia_...ng_school.html) I decided that it wouldn't give me enough bang for my buck, hung my rail on the wall and started building an airplane instead. I was seeking something new, novel and challenging. I suspect that in many cases this is part of the pilot personality. So what percentage of the population with the means to fly also has those traits? I don't know but I think it's a point worth considering.

    Funny thing is when a previous poster mentioned riding a Kawasaki Ninja as an alternative form of transportation my first reaction was that I do ride my ZX-14 because it uses less fuel than my Dodge dualie. But then I realized that my Smart Car gets better fuel efficiency than my Ninja and doesn't use a tire every 3000 miles. That brought me back to the question of why I ride the Kaw and the answer was recreation. Why do I fly? For the same reason.

    I think it's clear that cost is a barrier to many candidates, especially the younger ones. I'm 58 and only now am in a situation where all the elements have come together to motivate me to learn to fly. But that is just one element in the mix. It's important to have not only means but desire but last of all most people need to be sold on flying or they may just never seriously consider it.

    This raises a question in my mind. Is aviation being marketed properly? Does the Sporty's promotional video below do a good job of appealing to pilot personalities?



    My $.02 worth.
    Last edited by Eric Marsh; 01-29-2012 at 09:36 AM.

  9. #29

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    Wow this is a really good thread!

    Lots of thoughtful comments and interesting perspectives, here's my own personal experience. I decided to get into flying for strictly fun and the learning challenge that was present. I began in the fall of 1992 and got my license in May of '93. At the time I was working as a "Cost Analyst" with probably 20 plus years of experience so I began by trying to "cost justify" the activity. This proved pretty much impossible, but the process proved valuable in finding a cost effective way to get the license and fly after that accomplishment. Back in the early 90's I flew a C-150 for $30/hr wet and later an Archer II for $42/hr wet. There are a number of interesting cost comparisons presented in this thread that point out all the variables that can be factored into to determine whether to fly GA, airline, or simply drive a car. In my case, I fly mostly to satisfy myself, it's what I call "mental health maintenance". I do a couple of cross-countries each summer mostly to visit family back in Wisconsin, the cost comparisons of driving vs flying favor driving, from a purely numbers standpoint, but I arrive much more rested when I fly and avoid the drive around Chicago. The original question of this thread, "What killed GA?" has been well covered in the discussions provided and it's clear that there are many reasons that when added together drive a downward trend. Having said that, I'd agree with others that the future will look a lot more like the 1930's with a lot of "little guys" flying for fun and a few who have transportation needs that can be cost justified by GA. Aviation as an industry has matured, just like the rest of the US economy, and that means change for many and opportunity for some.

    Joe

  10. #30

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    It seems like this topic really should be flying vs driving for a trip. If so, I really don't like long distance driving, especailly if you are going across the desert like to Califorina or all the way across west Texas, a lot of flat, arid and not very scenic country. So if I am not flying my Bonanza, I much prefer to take Southwest Airlines. It's safe and usually pretty cheap, more comfortable and less stressful(except for TSA) then driving,, and a lot faster for long distanceses.. Even in pretty country like around Oshkosh in the summer, you can see more from the air than in a car, though not the detail. I enjpy flying my plane from Colorado to Osh each summer. There are gorgeous places to see in western Colorado, but some of the drivng is just semi truck crowded freeways, and stresful. It is much better to see it from your private plane, again, if weather allows.

    There is an article by Patty Wagstaff in the new Plane and Pilot.magazine. She drove her Miini Cooper ( your new she'd have something fun to drive) from L A to Florida. She compared the cost, the driving trip was about $1100, ( gas , motel food) and I don't know if that includes the speeding ticket she got in Texas, think she was doing about a 100. Driving took 4 days. She could have done it in 2 days in a Cirrus, or even a 182 perhaps, and the cost would only have been about $1200. Saving 2 days of boredom would be worth it. Of course that assumes the weather would have allowed flying with no hangups.
    Last edited by Bill Greenwood; 01-29-2012 at 10:52 AM.

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