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Thread: We reached a settlement agreement with the FAA re: ATC fees for AirVenture

  1. #1
    EAA Staff / Moderator Hal Bryan's Avatar
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    We reached a settlement agreement with the FAA re: ATC fees for AirVenture

    Here's the link to the full story, including full text of the legal agreements:

    http://eaa.org/news/2014/2014-03-21_eaa-faa-reach-agreement-on-airventure-atc-costs.asp

    Hal Bryan
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  2. #2
    Jim Heffelfinger's Avatar
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    Glad to see an agreement that has a future.

  3. #3
    How can the FAA ever show up to Oshkosh as they have in the past ?
    I can remember going to a "meet the administrator" question and answer gathering
    I came away thinking they were not my "friend" but they were not out to get me either.
    If they had the gathering now--people would throw rocks at them
    sad to say--it will from now on be a "us versus them"

  4. #4
    Other than taking the uncertainty out of the situation, what was gained by this settlement? It appears that EAA has agreed to pay, for the next nine years, the same costs for which they were assessed in 2013.

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by flibmeister View Post
    Other than taking the uncertainty out of the situation, what was gained by this settlement? It appears that EAA has agreed to pay, for the next nine years, the same costs for which they were assessed in 2013.
    Actually the costs should be a lot lower. The FAA assessment last assumed all ATC staff was paid and required massive overtime. Per this press release, EAA will only have to cover costs for the overages since all staff at the event will now be volunteers.

    Tim

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by tspear View Post
    Actually the costs should be a lot lower. The FAA assessment last assumed all ATC staff was paid and required massive overtime. Per this press release, EAA will only have to cover costs for the overages since all staff at the event will now be volunteers.

    Tim
    Not true, I'm afraid. The controllers working OSH have always been "volunteers" in the sense that they request such duty (as opposed to being involuntarily assigned to it). They're paid their standard hourly rate and receive time-and-a-half only if they work more than 8 hours in a day or 40 hours in a week, just as if they were working at their home facility. There's nothing in the agreement to indicate that's changed.

    The amount of overtime used at the event itself is insignificant. However, if a controller is working at OSH, that means there's a hole in the schedule at his home facility-- and if the FAA has to call in overtime at the home facility to fill that hole, that overtime cost is passed on to the event organizer.

    After reading the EAA Q&A on the subject (http://eaa.org/news/2014/2014-03-21_...services.asp#1) it's clear they expect no cost savings: "The FAA will charge EAA its actual cost for the same elements that were charged for in 2013: travel; backfill overtime (for FAA personnel who fill in for the controllers and others who have come to Oshkosh); supplies; and overhead; all at FAA's standard rates."

    I think a better subject for this thread would be, "EAA Folds, re: ATC Fees for Airventure." EAA has chosen to rollover on the issue to insure certainty and stability-- understandable, but it sets a precedent for all such events, even though there's been no fair hearing as to whether the FAA has the right to impose such user fees in the first place.
    Last edited by flibmeister; 03-21-2014 at 04:16 PM.

  7. #7
    TedK's Avatar
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    Angry EAA put its Own Survival over The Interests of its Members

    EAA just agreed to User Fees for GA. You have created a Situation for which there is no return.

    I am disgusted that you agreed to a payment agreement with the FAA, worse yet, it was agreed to in Secret negotiations with no opportunity for the membership to provide comment.

    The worst part is that we now have no leg to stand on battling user fees.

    How could a loss in court have been worse that paying the FAA extortion?

    Have you no concept of Principle?

    You put survival of your organization over the interests of your membership.
    Last edited by TedK; 03-22-2014 at 09:12 PM. Reason: Overriding auto spell

  8. #8

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    EAA management has really blown it this time. I will not profess to speak for others but as for me I believe Mr Pelton will if he has any integrity resign immediately . Mr Pelton I would say to you that you and your management team do not speak for me. Any person or organization which is unwilling to stand and fight for a matter of principle as great as this deserves to fail. If fighting this means that Oshkosh needs to be canceled for one or two years in order to win this battle then so be it. It would return stronger than ever. How can the management of EAA go directly against the wishes of so many of its members and expect to prosper. You have made it clear that this organization is all about the money. This is completely and utterly disgusting. The membership of this organization should demand the immediate departure of the senior management staff.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by flibmeister View Post
    Not true, I'm afraid. The controllers working OSH have always been "volunteers" in the sense that they request such duty (as opposed to being involuntarily assigned to it). They're paid their standard hourly rate and receive time-and-a-half only if they work more than 8 hours in a day or 40 hours in a week, just as if they were working at their home facility. There's nothing in the agreement to indicate that's changed.

    The amount of overtime used at the event itself is insignificant. However, if a controller is working at OSH, that means there's a hole in the schedule at his home facility-- and if the FAA has to call in overtime at the home facility to fill that hole, that overtime cost is passed on to the event organizer.

    After reading the EAA Q&A on the subject (http://eaa.org/news/2014/2014-03-21_...services.asp#1) it's clear they expect no cost savings: "The FAA will charge EAA its actual cost for the same elements that were charged for in 2013: travel; backfill overtime (for FAA personnel who fill in for the controllers and others who have come to Oshkosh); supplies; and overhead; all at FAA's standard rates."

    I think a better subject for this thread would be, "EAA Folds, re: ATC Fees for Airventure." EAA has chosen to rollover on the issue to insure certainty and stability-- understandable, but it sets a precedent for all such events, even though there's been no fair hearing as to whether the FAA has the right to impose such user fees in the first place.
    Well that sucks.
    And also makes me question my EAA membership.

    Tim

  10. #10

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    I went and read the FAQs. I did not see that the EAA staff investegated contractor services. I talked to Air Boss, Inc at Sebring during the Sport Pilot Expo about whether they could do EAA. The owner said yes. That all of his employees were ex FAA controllers and ALL had done AV. He said he could do it with half the staff and for 1/3 the cost.

    See this article: http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?d...C-C51D20F1BC98

    Their service was fantastic. I encourage the EAA board to FIRE the FAA and hire this group. If the FAA fails to give the EAA the NOTAMs they need to do their event, then we should continue to sue.

    Hal,
    I have a question for you and Pelton. Did the agreement require the FAA administrator to show up at AV all of those years with his staff and face the members in a Townhall and to meet with the members on their concerns? If not, then EAA screwed up.
    Last edited by Ylinen; 03-21-2014 at 08:51 PM.

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