You are aware membership can be cancelled at any time?Originally Posted by Bernie Q
You are aware membership can be cancelled at any time?
Well said docmirror ........
In my opinion, EAA administration just completed the transition from being the Experimental Aircraft Association (which had our convention at Oshkosh), to a membership group attached to 'Airventure'. I think they 'bailed' on the members interests to this point by bowing to the FAA.
Floats...if you don't think it's all about subjegation and control at the federal level...google "Edward Snowden". (tongue firmly in cheek..Don't waste your time on me :-)
Carl...my opinion, it's not any members' job to come up with a solution. That's what I thought we all pay admin for, and again in my opinion, they failed miserably this time.
Quoting the EAA Q&A page.... "EAA member dues won't pay the FAA for air traffic services. The AirVenture budget is completely outside that which is funded by annual dues."
What is missing from that explanation is that EAA volunteers ARE helping pay the FAA for air traffic services...submitted for your consideration....TRULY disassociate 'EAA' and 'Airventure'. Quit pretending it's a 'convention' and let 'Airventure' be the public airshow it has become. The kicker would be, though, a per hour amount for every hour of 'EAA' members' time donated to 'Airventure', gets pulled out of the 'Airventure' bottom line and directly into 'EAA' for advocacy or (what the heck) bribery. That seems a more equitable way to determine which entity is supporting the other. EAA admin...I'm sure the figures are available...input?
Airventure, including the general public, with the associated jet trucks, nightly concerts, huge non-aviation exhibits, top-crust pavilions, etc. hasn't been 'my' convention for some time now and my attendance has reflected that.
I just checked my membership card... "Member Since 1/1/1971"..."Member Through 7/31/2014". It's been a good run. As Carl said, I have many EAA friends, some old, some new. I will miss the connection if I choose not to renew.
Speaking of EAA friends, we lost a good one yesterday. RIP Jim Maroney..your airshow and personality brought me equal joy!
I read this announcement with a great deal of trepidation, and have taken a couple of days before forming a reply to it.
First the national EAA wanted to stir up the members over this and made a big deal out of how it is illegal, we're gonna sue the government, etc. Then they quietly roll over without saying boo to the membership until it's a done deal. Then the big announcement as if they have accomplished something other than rolling over. Any way you cut it, baloney is still baloney and I don't see any way to put this in a good light. The EAA simply rolled over on us. Along with their self interest in AirVenture, their capitulation also just put every small air show in danger of extinction (except Copperstate who already showed the way without the FAA). It's pretty clear that AirVenture takes precedence over preservation of the freedoms of flight. This action also tells me I can no longer trust the EAA to lobby the FAA and Federal Government on my behalf. In the EAA's eyes, members are to be used for letter writing campaigns, but the EAA is no better than Congress in that they apparently no longer feel constrained by the desires of their constituents.
I've got to do some serious contemplation as to whether I want to support this organization any longer or not. We've got both AOPA and EAA to represent us, and they have become so much alike, they should probably merge. EAA, you have sold your soul and lost your way. At least AOPA seems to know who they are.
CubBuilder
Read this Sun 'n Fun news release dated 3/25/2013.
"SUN ‘n FUN 2013 will take off as scheduled with official, certified FAA Air Traffic Controllers insuring safe and expeditious handling of all arrivals and departures at Lakeland Linder Airport, April 8-15."
Sun 'n Fun agreed to and paid for ATC services well before EAA and, thus, Sun 'n Fun set the precedent. Prior to making assertions about EAA actions setting precedents, at least get your facts straight.
Last year Copperstate was held successfully without ATC services. Copperstate is much smaller than either Sun n Fun or AirVenture and had already dispensed with their airshow years before this latest imbroglio occurred. I was there and everything appeared to be running just fine for an event of its size without using any ATC services other than those normally provided to aircraft arriving and departing from Casa Grande.
Bill
For those that couldn't attend, here's the link to the recording of Jack's webinar today. I provided Jack and Dick (Knapinski, who served as host/moderator) with a complete list of questions from this thread, and believe he addressed them all.
http://www.eaavideo.org/video.aspx?v=3390959189001
Hal Bryan
EAA Lifetime 638979
Vintage 714005 | Warbirds 553527
Managing Editor
EAA—The Spirit of Aviation
I watched the EAA Webcast today. I thought Jack did a good job of explaining the reasons he and the board did what they did. The most compelling point for me was that the legal action could not guarantee FAA would send controllers to support the event or issue the weavers that the FAA needs. It is march with an event in August. What else but settle could they do.
Some here seem to want a vote of the members to hold AV or not with or without the FAA. I guess that could be done, but given the number that vote for the board, how many do you think would take the time to do that vote.
I think the agreement allows us to look for other options. Something Jack said they would continue to do for future years. Jack said they had approach contract controllers and none said they could do the event this year.
One thing I hope the EAA does is hold the FAA to the contract. One item is we have to pay Per Diem for the controllers lodging and meals. The Government Per Diem rate for Oshkosh is $83 a day for lodging and $46 for meals and incidentals. I hope we stick to that. Anyone know where they can get a room for $83? I don't so the FAA will have to pay the controllers the difference out of their budget. So there are other ways we can take it to them.
I have another idea for Jack at EAA. When it comes time to settle up with the FAA for Air Venture. He should compute the amount of fuel tax that the members bought on the grounds and were taxed at .17 per gallon and all the gallons bought getting to and returning home to AV and deduct it from the bill. We should not have to pay twice for the same service.
Last edited by Ylinen; 03-25-2014 at 04:21 PM.
so where will EAA get the money???
if there is a charge on the planes flying in --it comes to around $40.00 per plane
or do they add $1.00 to each ticket ???
I understand why Jack did what he did-----its just not the flyin--its also about a LOT of good people that work for EAA and would lose their jobs, Its also about a bunch of good people in Oshkosh that depend on Airventure to help them make ends meet through the year. A lot of the vendors could not make it through the year without showing their products at Oshkosh
Lets face it--the FAA screwed us--not Jack. And instead of turning around and screwing a lot of good people--Jack made the call that he felt hurt the least amount of people.. Tough call--took some balls--but I'm going to stand with him on this one.
NOW--if the low life FAA ever drags their tail--and I'm around--going to step on it !!!
AND everytime I talk to my senator and congressman--I'm going to let them know they should gut the pay and retirements of all the head people in the FAA and the administrator should be flying Delta instead of the G3 and cessna jets.
Kevin
PS I will now probably be ramp checked everytime I land
Explaining why you are a Quisling doesn't mean you aren't a Quisling. Some have a high tolerance for backstabbing, and deflection of the responsibility entrusted to them by the people they supposedly represent. I am not one of those people. 50 minutes of 'it isn't my fault' and 'they did it too' followed by 'it would cost us more' is humiliating. Do what you want - think what you want - use any rationalization you want to get you through the day. Personally, my principles are worth more than that.
What continues to disturb me is that EAA seems to think that the survival of EAA and AV are more important than the principles held by the membership. While I certainly don't wish anything bad on EAA's employees, they are just that. We should not hold AV to assure employment of 180 (I think was Jack's number), and there are plenty of airshow around the states, even the Reading Airshow is back.
Perhaps my military training colors my thinking but I am willing sacrifice some for the greater good of achieving the objective. Mr. Ausman can tell you we had a saying when flying combat, "you have to go out, you don't have to come back." (unashamedly pirated from the USCG). Some things are worth fighting for.
I would like like to think I would have done it differently, but we are where we are, I will cease carping and look for leadership and direction. The question before us now is what exactly are our principles and what are the objectives of EAA? Then how do we propose to achieve those objectives, and where are the lines we will not let others cross? That would make a great discussion with Jack and the board at the theater. It needs to be part of the agenda for the annual meeting.
Forward, with purpose, more aviating.
Last edited by TedK; 03-25-2014 at 06:39 PM.
Ok, I have read this entire thread and can only suggest that there be some effort on Mr. Pelton, EAA in general, to persue one of the options mentioned by both readers of this thread and Mr. Pelton himself. That is the use of outside contorllers.. From what I have read, Mr. Pelton said that there were not available to work Oshkosh THIS YEAR... What about years to come? I suggest that the powers that be get together and see about hiring the named provider, or others, that will be able to do the job the FAA wants to 'charge extra' for. It is stated that EAA can terminate this agreement, if it finds other providers. Ok, start contacting them, and lets see what we can come up with.
Wayne
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