Skydiver Hits Plane !!!!!

[Jeff Boatright]

This is the last place on this good earth that I would have ever expected Shakespeare to be quoted. Didn't get him in high school, still don't and I like to think I'm pretty cultured. My original opinion here still stands, this was an unavoidable accident. Could have happened to any one of us(pilot and jumper) in the identical multi-use environment. Wrong time, wrong pace.

But that's my point: Why are two disparate activities occurring in the same place? Why is it a good idea to have a drop zone at an airport? Why is "wrong time, wrong place" even happening?

I've read a lot of misdirection and avoidance of the actual issue in this thread, but have yet to read a real defense of this specific activity, one that makes no sense to me. I don't skydive, but have nothing against it AT ALL. Why would I? I love that there are people who enjoy the sky in a way differently than I do. Jump planes taking off with the jumpers - love it. And jj - we love those lovable jumpers (weird that that's who you and your wife love, too, and a bit TMI, but hey, it's a big ol' world and we're all in it ). BUT, jumpers plummeting through the pattern, jumpers *that realistically nobody can see even when you're looking for them, and whose activity thus de facto shuts down the airport to sensical pilots* - not such a clear relationship.

As has become apparent from several posts here, many skydiving clubs in fact recognize this and have their drop zones away from the airport, so apparently some jumpers share my concerns. Are they self-loathing? Or do they instead have some sense of self-preservation?

So, to name names:

Wes, Floatsflyer, jjhoneck: Help me understand your position. Why is it A-OK, safe-as-houses, to have skydivers dropping through the pattern? Specifically, why is it just fine that the drop zone is in the airport pattern?

And specifically to Wes: I agree, we are the happy few. And we're just talking here.

[Mayhemxpc]

Agree with Jeff above. It seems to be closely related to risk management. Jumpers in the pattern with airplanes -- which really aren't that maneuverable close to the ground (landing is already the highest accident prone phase of flight -- even without parachutists.) I don't think we can do much to mitigate impact, so what can we do to reduce exposure?

It has been suggested that radio calls are the answer. Maybe, maybe not. Certainly they can help increase situational awareness. But…are we all sure that we are all communicating on the same frequency? What about pilots who do not have radios? They still exist. No excuse, everyone has access to handhelds. Well and good, but they are not required and not intended for use as a normal means of air-to-air communications. Even when you have everybody on the same frequency and making the appropriate calls, imagine yourself turning base to hear, "jumpers away over (airport name), 6000 feet." What is the proper response? (Not on the radio, but with your eyes, hands, and feet.) What do you do while you are going through your before landing checklist, looking for another airplane who might be dragging in on a low final NORDO, looking for other planes entering the runway, monitoring position of your aircraft with the intended landing point, etc…all of the usual stuff we have to worry about in all four dimensions (time). Oh, and buzzards. Now this?

It kind of sounds like the airport is, from a risk management perspective, closed to all other legitimate aviation activities while parachute jumping is underway.

I do not intend anything in this as opposed to parachute sports. I have found everyone I ever met associated with the sport to be professional and courteous…and a lot of fun. Nonetheless, when I know jump activity is underway at an airport, I go somewhere else.

[Flyfalcons]

Any operation that has jumpers going across an active runway should get shut down.

[Bob Dingley]

Any operation that has jumpers going across an active runway should get shut down.

Just an observation. Many of the jumpers that I have met do not have an airman's certificate. A few don't know a downwind leg from a chicken leg. Some may have never even been aboard a landing aircraft. Some still wonder why we take off into the wind.
Soon, details of this investigation will be published. I will be interested in the jumper's background. Why did he decide that it was just fine to cross a tree line 90 deg to an active RW and aim for the airplane touch down point? The news item reported that the accident pilot (aka "accident victim") was a WW2 pilot and it could be assumed that he knew what a traffic pattern was. How was airplane activity regulated during jumping at this AIRPORT? Have the lawyers showed up yet?
I am definitely not anti sport parachute. In fact, I was designated for jump school until my right leg had to be rebuilt. The Docs told me not to even think about jumping. Ever. I hung with Sport PC clubs and flew the jump ship, tho.


Bob

[ssmdive]

I am familiar with the airport, skydiving (6,100 jumps), and aviation (380 hours, have owned two planes, SEL/SES and fly acro).

Both parties were at fault IMO.
First, this is being made out to be an issue when it is really not an issue. It happens so infrequently that there is a need to pay attention, but not freak out.
Second, skydivers have as much right to the airport as a pilot does. The FAA agrees and any airport that does not see it that way will lose Federal Funding.

The pilot was doing touch and goes at an airport that had active jump operations.... OK, I do this all the time. The problem was he was doing it while jumpers were descending. That would be like trying to land on 31 while another guy lands on 24.... Yeah, you CAN do it but it is not a great idea. The best idea is to listen to the radio and when the jump plane makes a "2 Min till jumpers away" call... Leave the area. Be at or below 1K feet and +3 Miles from the DZ (If you want to get fancy, be DOWNWIND of the airport since jumpers exit upwind). Do this and there is practically zero chance of an issue. Skydivers normally drop once every 20-40 minutes, are in the area for 10 minutes and then the airspace is often free for another 15-30 minutes.

Me, I am in the pattern and when I hear "2 Min jumpers away", I finish up whatever I am doing (if I am in the pattern I finish that landing and then leave the area). When I see the tandems land, I get back into the pattern.

The jumper crossed the runway. He should not have done this. But, he had 100 jumps. To put that in aviation equivalency that is like he had 50-60 hours total time. And honestly at 100 jumps he has *maybe* 10 hours under canopy time; The guy is "licensed" but knows very little. I don't happen to get mad at 50 hour pilots who screw up the traffic pattern and I don't get mad at 100 jump wonders who land in the wrong spot.

This particular airport has a pretty bad setup. If the winds are out of the East (and they were that day) then the jumpers have to fly base over or very near the runway to be able to turn final and not over run the landing area. In this case the new jumper screwed up and took his downwind too far and ended up on the other side of the runway. He turned to final and ended up landing smack dab in the middle of the runway. No doubt he screwed up. But remember it takes TWO to collide and only one to avoid.

Part of the requirements for making a flight is for the pilot to know all the conditions that could effect that flight... Flying into an active dropzone area is one thing you should know about.

A few other things I have been told since I am "local".
1. The pilot might not have had a current medical. Maybe not an issue, but the FAA will not care.
2. The pilot had a reputation for not making or responding to radio calls.

I have been thinking of contacting the FAA Wings people about doing a presentation on "How to deal with a Dropzone".

[ssmdive]

But that's my point: Why are two disparate activities occurring in the same place? Why is it a good idea to have a drop zone at an airport? Why is "wrong time, wrong place" even happening?

Most commercial dropzones fly close to 20 flights a day. Landing off the dropzone (airport) and taking a shuttle back takes time and money. For example, I am a skydiving instructor. If I am working, I land from one jump and have 20 minutes to remove the harness from the student I just landed with, sign his logbook, pose for family photos, and then gear up my next student (while posing for family photos). At times, I have to RUN to the bathroom or grab a bite to eat. If I had to ride a bus back, then I simply will not make the next load.

Also, you think it is more or less dangerous to have an airport that you KNOW has skydiving that can be avoided if you like (but really is not needed) or would you rather have some field somewhere near that airport be the DZ.... Think about it, you don't know which field and there will be jumpers all around it. And airport is easy to avoid if you want, some random field less easy. Plus, what frequency is the jump pilot going to announce on when he is dropping?

Why are two disparate activities occurring in the same place?

Same reason Helicopters, gliders, ultralights, etc all use an airport. It is needed for a phase of flight.

BUT, jumpers plummeting through the pattern, jumpers *that realistically nobody can see even when you're looking for them, .

In freefall they are next to impossible to see. They are doing 120MPH, but they normally all open WELL above pattern altitude (2500-5000 feet AGL). Jumpers under canopy are EASY to see. Much easier than an airplane. They normally have bright colored parachutes, they only go about 20MPH in full flight, they can only pretty much go down/can't climb.

and whose activity thus de facto shuts down the airport to sensical pilots* - not such a clear relationship

It does not have to shut down an airport. If it does 'shut it down' it is for 5-10 minutes every 20-40 minutes.

As has become apparent from several posts here, many skydiving clubs in fact recognize this and have their drop zones away from the airport, so apparently some jumpers share my concerns. Are they self-loathing? Or do they instead have some sense of self-preservation?

None of the above. Those locations HAVE to land off the airport mostly because of airport management. If you took a survey of all the dropzones in the US, you would find that the VAST majority of them land on the airport. If you called the ones that do not land on the airport you will find they are not allowed.

Why is it A-OK, safe-as-houses, to have skydivers dropping through the pattern? Specifically, why is it just fine that the drop zone is in the airport pattern?

In most cases you will find that the skydiver landing area is nowhere near the pattern. In fact the pattern is often adjusted to make sure, or the DZ has to have an area away from the pattern.

Mayhemxpc:

Agree with Jeff above. It seems to be closely related to risk management. Jumpers in the pattern with airplanes -- which really aren't that maneuverable close to the ground (landing is already the highest accident prone phase of flight -- even without parachutists.) I don't think we can do much to mitigate impact, so what can we do to reduce exposure?

Listen to the unicom freq. Almost every DZ has a written agreement with the ATC in the area that outlines the specific radio calls and procedures each dropzone will follow. For example at the DZ I work at (and keep my private plane) the jump plane has a distinctive call sign issued to it from center "Jump 1" and it is given a transponder code. The pilot is required to make calls on the center frequency AND on the unicom
1. 2 minutes prior to jumpers away
2. At jumpers away also mentioning the length of time.

For example:
Pilot: "XXXXX Center, Jump 1, 2 minutes"
Pilot: "XXXXX Center, Jump 1, jumpers in freefall. Jump one on a rapid descent 3 miles North of XXXXX
Center: "Attention all planes, skydivers in freefall over XXXX airport the next 10 minutes"

Unicom:
Pilot: "XXXXXX Airport Jumpers in freefall 14,000 feet and below in two minutes for the next 10 minutes, please avoid overflying XXXXXX"
Pilot: "XXXXXX Airport jumpers away the next 10 minutes, please avoid flying over the airport and use caution in the area for the next 10 minutes".
Pilot: "XXXXXX Airport, Jump one in a rapid descent 3 miles North of XXXXXX

Further, center will tell the jump plane whenever there is traffic in the area that could be a factor. I monitor center when I do acro And have often been identified as an erratic target 6 miles north of XXXXX. The jump pilot knows me and knows my area and I tell him when I am active. There are plenty of times that an unidentified target will cause the jump plane to abort that jump run. A plane in the pattern might not show up (although since the airport that had this accident has a cutout from LAL airspace, I doubt that in this case).

But…are we all sure that we are all communicating on the same frequency?

They will be on unicom and center... It is in the agreement.

Even when you have everybody on the same frequency and making the appropriate calls, imagine yourself turning base to hear, "jumpers away over (airport name), 6000 feet." What is the proper response?

From 6,000 feet you have 10-15 seconds before they open at 3-4K feet, and 6-10 minutes before they land. If you are at 500-800 feet on base you have plenty of time to continue the landing or go around if you like. Me, if I am in the pattern doing T@Go's and they call jumpers away I continue to land and then on the take off fly away from the airport. If it is full stop, unless I am landing on the grass runway that is right next to the student landing area I just go about my business. If I am full stop on the grass, I fly away and come back in 10 minutes.

It kind of sounds like the airport is, from a risk management perspective, closed to all other legitimate aviation activities while parachute jumping is underway.

Depends on the airport. In Zephyrhills, FL you have ultralights, skydiving, GA, and even cars on the airport and it is never really an issue. At the airport in THIS case, it would be wise to avoid the area for 5-10 minutes after they drop.... But then you have 20-40 minutes before the next drop.

But MOST of the airports with DZ's have taken this into consideration. Some are not set up well (like this airport in question), but others you will never have an issue.

Nonetheless, when I know jump activity is underway at an airport, I go somewhere else.

That is an option, but not needed IMO (and I think I am pretty well educated on the topic).

Bob Dingly

Just an observation. Many of the jumpers that I have met do not have an airman's certificate. A few don't know a downwind leg from a chicken leg.

They are all taught that. But jumpers are no different that pilots. Not everyone intercepts the dw on a 45 or does a cross wind. Some drag out a final for 10 miles. Others turn right base when the traffic is left. I have seen pilots take off on taxiways, cut in front of a plane at A2 that was holding on the end of the runway, take off down wind with a plane on final... Heck once at an airport I SWORE I was going to see a crash. I was flying a final for 32 between a Mooney in front of me and a Cessna behind me... We were all talking and knew where each other was. I then heard a radio call for a guy saying he was final for 32 for landing. Well, he was not in front of me and the Cessna behind me said he was not in front of him.... Sure enough, the guy was final on 05. I made a radio call to the Mooney in front of me and told him he had converging traffic on 05 on his left - He applied power and went around. He went OVER the Cessna on 05 at the intersection.

Skydivers are people, they can make mistakes.... Just like pilots.

I will be interested in the jumper's background.

100 jumps, less than a year.

Why did he decide that it was just fine to cross a tree line 90 deg to an active RW and aim for the airplane touch down point?

He didn't, he screwed up and landed short. He is unable to add power and go around. He had other options (few) such as continuing his base all the way to touchdown and landing off to the West of the runway area. (BTW, you guys know that the pilot was actually short of the runway right? If you look in the pictures you can see some white buckets. That is the 'official' start of the runway - He was landing on the 'threshold'... Short of the official runway. Not that it really matters in the big picture).

[MV031161]

is it me or the video kept on making sure WE KNEW the pilot was #1 an elderly man #2 87 years old and #3 it was the aircraft that crashed the jumper and not the other way around....!!!!!!!!

[Eagle Six]

Most commercial dropzones ~~~~~

Excellent posts....Thank You.



Best Regards.......George

[Frank Giger]

I've been on both sides, as a jumper and a pilot.

First, the jumper story: Back when dinosaurs connected their computers remotely by putting the handset into the modem I decided to do some civilian jumping. MC1-1B chute, which is the round Army chute with holes cut out of the back of it and some toggles to help steer. It's not much by way of control. I got the go (standing on the gear and holding on the strut of a Cessna) well off mark. Good thing I had Army wings, as I wound up foregoing toggles and laterally slipping in order to avoid hangars and parked airplanes for a strawberry inducing tree landing. The other options were active roads or power lines. No worries, crap happens - and usually to me. Turns out their jump master was less than proficient and before he was fired tended to put people away by landmark and not wind. We stopped with that company when the whole stick landed on the active runway a few weeks later.

So it's not really all the jumper's fault. The best laid plans - even if he's released properly - can go astray due to a wind shift, a strong thermal (especially for light weight jumpers), or a simple misjudgement.

As a pilot - and a very junior one - I've flown when there are jump operations on our field. The CTAF is the key. Hearing "Jumpers away at blah, blah, blah" isn't good enough for me. It's not a robot in the jump plane saying that; it's a pilot, and one familiar with jumpers in the air. "Jump plane, I'm in the yellow Champ five miles west from the downwind to 3, how long until they're down and clear?" or "Jump plane, I'm on the taxiway for 3 and a north departure, am I clear of your jumpers to take off?" is okay, I reckon. It may not sound very pilot-y professional, but last I checked they aren't handing out scores for that.

Jumpers are hard to see, even with canopy. They're not where one can see them a lot of times, and a pilot on final is looking at the end of the runway and focused on landing. So I wouldn't put it all on the pilot, either; except that doing touch-and-goes during active jump operations isn't the best decision to begin with.

Chalk it up to a bad day with a lot of little things conspiring to go wrong - the classic accident chain.

As to "why even this-or-that," it's a false question. Loads of people wonder why we fly our own airplanes, why airplanes have to be loud, and why we have to fly so low around airports (and near their houses).

[RickFE]

@ SSMDIVE. Glad you took the time to cover so much territory. I don't skydive any more (700 dives), former skydiver driver, and pilot (2,400 Hrs). I currently operate at an airport with glider activity, skydiving activity, ultralights and find if you monitor CTAF they are all very good about announcing their position. Also am left wondering how skydiver opening higher than 2,500 feet are opening beside aircraft.

I sometimes go to another local airport because of their stellar gas prices and it is the same thing. A larger skydiving operation and nobody seems particularly bothered by them.

I think the incident we are all talking about is so rare that it it can not be used as the norm. It is like judging the safety of all GA pilots and aircraft based on an off airport landing by a single GA aircraft.