Skydiver Hits Plane !!!!!

[Jeff Boatright]

Because the FAA tells them to?

...

Wes

Oh, well, if the FAA says it's legal, it must be safe.

Sorry to be contrary, but based on the reality I've experienced, I challenge you to sit in a C-172, stationary under a drop zone, and not only pick out the skydivers in the air, but tell me with dead-nuts certainty what their path will be and where they are going to land. I don't think you'll be able to do it (especially if student divers are involved, because THEY won't be able to predict their own paths). Now, start taxiing. Not only will you not be able to complete the previous task, you won't even be able to see all the skydivers until it is way, way too late to take any action to avoid them, should their paths potentially coincide with yours. At this point, if you still think it's safe to take-off because the FAA tells you it's legal, well, maybe the FARs will somehow save you and them, but I sure wouldn't count on it.

As to your other points, again sorry, but I have to disagree. Everyone is not equal in airspace. Pilots who fly unpredictable, nonstandard patterns that disrupt airport activity are considered dangerous and to be avoided. They are not considered to be the equal of safe, competent pilots. Rather, they are considered sub-par. Now I ask: How predictable of a pattern do skydivers fly?

As to "We share the airspace with many other aviation activities" - you know what happens at the local "skydiving" airport (D73) when there is skydiver activity? People based there self-ground and people from other airports stay away (at least for the duration). There is very little "sharing" - nobody with a choice flies with skydivers. Again, just my experience, but to the degree that pilots are aware that skydiving is occurring, the pilots I know avoid D73. No sharing of airspace - the skydivers and jump planes have it all to themselves.

All this is not to say that I am against skydiving or skydivers. Each to his own. Further, it may well be that the amount of skydiving at D73 keeps that airport solvent. But let's not pretend that skydiving, legal though it may be, doesn't impact the safety, and hence the behavior, of others who want to use the same resources.

[WLIU]

So I spent a few years operating at a small airport that was shared by ultralights, a helicopter school, fixed wing students, a skydiving club, a prop shop that had lots of transients, a little restaurant that had fly in customers, and with a bunch of neighbors west of the airport who wanted the whole circus shut down.

Every time I ran into a situation where I needed to up my situational awareness to make sure that I was not one of the dumb pilots, I reminded myself that if we do not find the skills, patience, and tolerance to all get along, we will all get grounded together. In the end, whether we like it or not, we are all more alike than different. You didn't get to pick your family members, but for better or worse, you live with them and do your best to get along. The same applies here. If you are really the great aviator that you think you are, kick up your game a notch and carry on. The reality is that whenever you or I think that we are more entitled to the airspace than another individual, there is someone out there who thinks that you and I should be a second class citizen. It is an unwise road to start down.

Lets go do that great pilot stuff and skip the bickering.

Y'all be careful out there.

Wes
N78PS

[Joe LaMantia]

This is a great topic!

Wes,

I learned my lesson last year on my return flight from Lancaster Wi (73C) to Hartzell Fld Piqua, OH (I17). Lancaster is a really small airport maybe a half-dozen planes based there. The main activity is a skydiving club that operates on the weekends. I have left there several times when "activity" was in progress w/o incident, if their airborne I simply stand next to my aircraft and wait till everyone is back on the ground b/4 I fire-up and take-off. This is not a big deal since they only have one Cessna 182 and a handful of "jumpers". Now about last years' lesson, my flight to and from Lancaster takes me a bit north of Rochelle, IL (KRPJ).
KRPJ has another skydiving club that has a twin-turboprop that can carry a "bunch" of jumpers. I always monitor CTAF for each airport along my route and this particular Sunday I as I approached that airport I heard the pilot announce his position as over the airport at 10000FT and "Jumpers Away". I had announced my position and altitude a few minutes b/4 as 5 miles NW at 4500. I don't know if the pilot of the twin heard my call but I do know that I got no acknowledgement. I was maybe a mile out maybe less when those guys jumped. I started scanning the sky as I cranked hard left and saw several chutes deploy above and to my right. Fortunately I was able to stay clear, but I don't ever want to see jumpers in flight that close again. My new procedure will be to remain outside the 5 mile airport zone whenever there is a parachute on the sectional. I'll still call up the CTAF but I will not go near those places to save a couple of miles along my route.

Joe

[Jeff Boatright]

So I spent a few years operating at a small airport that was shared by ultralights, a helicopter school, fixed wing students, a skydiving club, a prop shop that had lots of transients, a little restaurant that had fly in customers, and with a bunch of neighbors west of the airport who wanted the whole circus shut down.

Every time I ran into a situation where I needed to up my situational awareness to make sure that I was not one of the dumb pilots, I reminded myself that if we do not find the skills, patience, and tolerance to all get along, we will all get grounded together. In the end, whether we like it or not, we are all more alike than different. You didn't get to pick your family members, but for better or worse, you live with them and do your best to get along. The same applies here. If you are really the great aviator that you think you are, kick up your game a notch and carry on. The reality is that whenever you or I think that we are more entitled to the airspace than another individual, there is someone out there who thinks that you and I should be a second class citizen. It is an unwise road to start down.

Lets go do that great pilot stuff and skip the bickering.

Y'all be careful out there.

Wes
N78PS

I agree with your sentiments and have in fact spoken up for UL, PPC/PPG, and other non-traditional activity (for want of a better phrase) at my home airport. However...

In no way did I say I'm more entitled, or feel more entitled, to airspace than the next guy. Like I said, each to his own, and further, skydiving may be the main reason that that airport (D73) is even still around. So that's great. But I think that skydiving with landings at the airport do not mix with normal airport activity with equal safety. This is evidenced by the accident just reported and as evidenced by what I've seen in specific incidents and what I've seen in terms of overall pilot behavior in regards to skydiving at D73. Certainly at least one skydiving club agrees, since as pointed out by another poster here, their drop zone is 5 miles from the airport.

Separately, Wes, I don't see why you think this is bickering. We're on an internet discussion forum. As far as I know, we are having a discussion. "Bickering" is arguing about trivial or petty matters. I don't think anything you or I have written is trivial or petty.

[WLIU]

Bickering - A perception. My personal view is that discussions about how we can use all of the tools and skills available to safely and efficiently mix together at the airport is constructive. When we get into who should or should not have a share of airport real estate and airspace, our discussion heads downhill and does us no good.

I agree that keeping track of skydivers above, helicopters doing 180 degree overhead autorotations, ultralights "sneaking" in at 500', and sailplanes on downwind at 50 screaming kts makes arrivals more challenging some days. And hiking over to have a polite chat with a fellow aviator who hasn't been living up to their part of the safety equation is also a pain. But we need those folks if sport aviation is to survive and suggesting that they land someplace else does not work 99% of the time.

Shakespeare was not an aviator, but he put some words in the mouth of Henry V, that I suggest applies

"We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother; be he ne’er so vile,
This day shall gentle his condition;
And gentlemen in England now-a-bed
Shall think themselves accurs’d they were not here,
And hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks
That fought with us upon Saint Crispin’s day.”

Best of luck,

Wes
N78PS

[Bob Dingley]

Those are scarry pictures and I'm thankful that everyone survived. The comments here are somewhat disapointing. See and avoid? Least effective with falling bodies. Joe LaMantia nailed it. Radios are the answer.
I used to drop jumpers long ago. There were procedures (Letters of agreement with FAA/ATC) that specified calls must be made prior to drop, at the drop and after the drop. Other traffic must monitor appropriate freqs. I always dropped into an off-airport DZ. They invented mini-vans for the sole purpose of getting jumpers back to the airport.
When I'm inbound to airports in the Mobile area, I notice that the magenta line at times runs over the top of a strip that has the parachute symbol. Its then prudent to dial up that CTAF and listen. I hear transmissions like " Five minutes to drop. One minute to drop. Jumpers away. Five chutes in the air." I also hear Mobile RAPCON transmitting the same to all traffic.
This incident happened in the Tampa area. I heard a rumor that radar services are available there. Was not the field NOTAMed closed at the time? Do they even bother to NOTAM when they jump? Or are PC ops continious SR to SS? Did the FSDO authorize simultanious PC/aircraft ops on the field? Is it possible a pilot that just cranked up may have missed a "Jumpers away"call? Could a pilot make a call on CTAF and ask "Any jump planes over the field?" No excuse these days for even ultralights not to have a hand held when mixing with jumpers. Can't the PC operation find an off-airport pasture for a DZ?





Bob

[tspear]

This link was posted of the images all stitched together on BeechTalk:

http://i.imgur.com/CQQPwRr.gif

[Skyhook]

Years back I thought only one thing dropped from the sky and that was a bird byproduct. Now we have to contend with UAVs, space junk, and meat missiles.

A couple of years back while doing a bit of X-C flying in my RV-4, I had one of those meat missiles drop beside me and pull the cord. The chute was pretty enough, but not so pretty as to calm my heartbeat.

The event in question will have an interesting FAA commentary. Can't wait.

[jjhoneck]

Our local skydiving operator used to drop on the beach, a mile from the airport. It was great for him (he picked up lots of business that way) and great fun for tourists, who gathered in large numbers to watch the landings.

Then...the politicians got involved. Powerful people on the field took a dislike to the skydivers, and decided to use their regulatory powers to force them off the field.

To that end, they decided that the shuttling of jumpers from the beach to the airport was "commercial transport", and tried to force him to become a licensed taxicab operator!

Faced with that choice, he did what any good businessman would do: He worked around it. Instead of landing on the beach, he simply started dropping on the federally protected airport environment. The people trying to drive him out were apoplectic, since this was perceived as being less safe, but powerless to stop him.

Sometimes karma sucks, and the laws of unintended consequences are always lurking in the shadows.

My wife and I just laughed. We LOVE the skydivers, and have never had an issue with them. But no matter where we go, there are always some so-called "pilots" (usually in name only) who almost existentially hate skydivers.

[Floatsflyer]

This is the last place on this good earth that I would have ever expected Shakespeare to be quoted. Didn't get him in high school, still don't and I like to think I'm pretty cultured. My original opinion here still stands, this was an unavoidable accident. Could have happened to any one of us(pilot and jumper) in the identical multi-use environment. Wrong time, wrong pace.