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Thread: Ethanol

  1. #21
    flyunleaded's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rosiejerryrosie View Post
    It is State Rep Seth Grove of the PA 196th District. His bill is discussed on his web page http://www.repgrove.com/NewsItem.aspx?NewsID=11966 Look at the side bar on the left.
    This bill will actually do nothing because the ethanol mandate in the In-State Production Incentive Act of 2008 has never triggered and probably never will. The original bill required an in state production trigger of corn ethanol, but that was changed in the final act to 350,000,000 gallons of cellulosic ethanol / yr. Considering that the federal RFS mandate this year is for 250 million gallons of cellulosic ethanol and the 30+ cellulosic ethanol companies have told the EPA that they could deliver maybe 6 - 10 million gallons, I doubt that this ethanol requirement will ever be met.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dana View Post
    Unfortunately, in some states (like Connecticut where I live), there is no ethanol free gas (other than avgas, which is also bad for engines not designed for it). Actually CT law mandates oxygenated gasoline but bans MTBE, which leaves ethanol as the only alternative. ...
    Actually CT has no oxygenate mandate that I am aware of. Winter oxygenate mandates were required by the EPA, not the state. The winter oxygenate program in CT is now in a contingency measure in SW CT. See http://www.epa.gov/otaq/regs/fuels/420b05013.pdf

    H
    owever CT has a Reformulated Gasoline requirement according to this EPA table: http://www.epa.gov/otaq/fuels/gasoli.../rfg/areas.htm Although in the past RFG had an oxygenate requirement, it no longer does, so ethanol need not be a component of RFG.

  3. #23
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    OK, but either way, ethanol is the only alternative since CT bans MTBE. The real problem is that the lawmakers are clueless about the science (or lack therof!) behind the laws they're passing, but they all want to look "green". Hmmm, sounds like laws relating to global warming... er, no, it's "climate change" now...

  4. #24

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    I filled up the car today in Boulder and noticed that the pump said oxygenated fuel. I am not sure what that is, don't think it is ethanol? Is is "green" and is it ok to use in airplanes of any kind that can run on car gas? I use 87 octane in the Mercedes, but it is available up to 91 octane. I am not going to use car gas in a plane, just curious about it.
    I have used car gas in my Cub a few times, couldn't tell any difference.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Greenwood View Post
    I filled up the car today in Boulder and noticed that the pump said oxygenated fuel. I am not sure what that is, don't think it is ethanol? Is is "green" and is it ok to use in airplanes of any kind that can run on car gas? I use 87 octane in the Mercedes, but it is available up to 91 octane. I am not going to use car gas in a plane, just curious about it.
    I have used car gas in my Cub a few times, couldn't tell any difference.
    As far as I know "oxygenated" is a euphanism for "ethanol added". Your Cub will run fine on Car gas but if it contains ethanol, it could, over time, do bad things to fuel lines, seals, etc. The alcohol will also attract and retain water which, over time, could lead to corrosion of important parts... Use it in an emergency but use it fast. Disclaimer: I am not a petrolium engineer and all that I have said has been gleaned from conversations with others....
    Cheers,
    Jerry

    NC22375
    65LA out of 07N Pennsylvania

  6. #26
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    There are a number of different oxygenate additives, MTBE being the most common. Due to health concerns, some states (including CT, where I live) have banned it. Ethanol is also an oxygenate, but it has to be used in much larger quantities to get the same effect, and it must be stated on the pump. If there's no ethanol, there's no reason not to use car gas in the older engines like in a Cub (though to be legal, you need the STC). If the engine is designed for 87 octane, car gas is better for it than 100LL. The type certificate for my 1941 T-Craft (A-65 engine) simply said "73 octane minimum".

  7. #27

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    THanks, Dana.
    I don't see any good reason to use car gas in my Cub. I did try it about 15 years ago a few times, Ithink that was before ethanol. I don't recall any major difference that I noticed, or really remember. It may have been a little harder to start than with the av gas.
    A Cub only burns about 4 gal an hour in my C 90, and I only fly it 20 hours a year or so. So even if I saved about $2.50 per gallon in costs, that is $50 a year. For that I"d have to have the inconvenience of going somewhere to buy the car gas in its own container and maybe storing some. I don't have a hangar and don't want to keep a can of gas in my car or garage. I'd need a funnel or spout to pour it inthe tank, probably getting gas on my hands or clothes.
    Now if it has ethanol in car gas, I'd risk hurting some of my fuel system.
    I don't have some idealogical slant against av gas. I know it may have more lead in it than a Cub needs, but it seems to start and run fine. And most of all it is proven and convenient , most airports sell gas and you just use the hose and spout provided to pump it into the tank with a minimum of fuss and bother.
    We built a Starlite with a 2 stroke Rotax engine. It has been about 20 years, but it may have called for car gas and we may have used Amoco unleaded, I can't recall for sure. We flew it a year or so and sold it. It was in the Detroit area last I looked. A sleek fun little plane, VERY LITTLE, only weighed 254 lbs and went 150 mph or so.
    I wonder if anyone is using just or mostly car gas, and how many hours they actually fly a year and how much they actually save once all costs are counted. And what do they do if they fly cross country.?

  8. #28
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    I use mostly car gas in my plane (Cuyuna 2-stroke engine), perhaps 50 hours/year. The engine manually specifically says to avoid avgas. The lead can lead to buildup in critical areas, namely spark plugs, and (on 4-stroke engines) valve seats. For engines designed for 87 octane avgas, the use of a lead scavenging additive like TCP is recommended to avoid these problems. Just because I mostly use car gas doesn't mean I won't fill up with avgas when I go cross country, and I also use avgas late in the fall because it keeps better, for those winter months when I fly less frequently.

  9. #29

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    Dana, I have some training, Air Force, as a mechanic and just some general engine knowledge. As for as I know, while lead or an excess of it, may cause spark plug fouling, I have never heard of it hurting valves. In fact lead is known to help cushion and preserve valve seats and may lube valve stems. Exhaust valve failure is a problem in the Cont engines like in my Bonanza. Of course, the Cont reps blame it on the pilot operation, just like Beech blamed it on the pilots when tails were failing on quite a few v tail Bonanzas. These same pilots, like myself, did not have exhaust valve problems when we flew a Lycoming in our Mooney, nor did the tails fall off many or if any Mooneys. Other than engine problems, I like to travel in the Bonanza.
    It has been a long time since we built and flew the Starlite. I know it had a Rotax 2 stroke, perhaps a 337. I think we did may have used Amaco unleaded car gas, can't be sure and don't know if the manual called for that or if we just did it on our own. I was mostly the test pilot, only did a small part of the building as I injured my knee just after we started and couldn't do much. Trying to fit a chute in that little cockpit was tight, but the plane flew ok.
    The 2 stroke engine sounded awful at idle, like you were shaking a can of marbles, but smoothed out as power came on, and it never failed us. I don't recall an trouble with plugs.
    I have flown a Gobosh LSA with a water cooled 4 stroke Rotax and it seemed like a good engine, of course using normal 100 LL avgas.

  10. #30
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    Bill, you may well be right and I be wrong. I know that engines designed for leaded fuel had valve stem lubrication issues when run on unleaded fuel, but I recall valve issues with excess lead as well... one mod was replacement (Stellite?) valve seats to deal with it. Or perhaps I'm thinking of something else...

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