Accumulated flight hours

[Infidel]

I recently received my PPL this past November with a total of 43.5 hours, which included my check ride with the Examiner. But those hours were the only hours I could count and/or apply towards my PPL training.

I was an ultralight instructor prior to the Sport Pilot movement and I didn't pursue the certificate or transition when it became effective. I did however, continue to fly a whole lot of hours in several LSA airplanes as well as 172's, RV's, etc. Heck, I even flew to Oshkosh a few years ago.

Anyhow, can hours/time as PIC now be included in my hour log if those hours were pre-certificate and technically not legal? I suspect an insurance company will only care and consider what "legal" hours are recorded, but really have no idea.

By the way; it feels good to finally be legal!!!

[Bill Greenwood]

Congratulations on getting your Private. Obviously any time you flew in a 172 or RV with a CFI can be counted. I am not sure how it would be if you were actually doing the flying without a CFI, but were not a legal pilot so not "pilot in command".
My Private took 43 hours in, mostly a Cherokee 140 back in '78-'79. What did you do yours in?

[champ driver]

I have a few questions for you, in your first line, if you thought you couldn't log that past time while training for your private, what changed that would allow it to be logged after you got the Certificate?
In another line you said that the previous time was "technically not legal", what makes it legal now?

I'm not familiar with the ultralight and LSA issues, so I can't answer those questions, but I'm a current CFII and MEI although I haven't trained a primary student in quite a few years.
The first time you were legally able to act as PIC was on your Private check ride. The only way to log time in those RV's and C-172's is to have gotten dual given by an instructor on board while you were flying. If there was no CFI on board then that was great experience for you, but there is no way to log it as anything.

I'm not trying to be a wet blanket on your questions, but I've seen and heard about too many people over the years illegally logging "time" and either getting caught and paying the price, or not getting caught and innocent passengers paying the ultimate price. For those and other reasons I've always tended to be very careful when logging time. I just don't want to take the chance of having any enforcement actions with the Fed's. If you were to have an accident or incident later and the Fed's looked through your log book and found time that was illegal to be used for another rating or certificate, that could be used by them for any violations against you, or the insurance company could nullify your insurance. I'm only bringing this up because I want you to be safe, and stay out of trouble with the Fed's.
Probably your best bet would be to call the local FSDO office and ask them about your exact situation.

I do congratulate you on getting your Private certificate, I hope you enjoy it and stay safe.
Jim

[Infidel]

I have a few questions for you, in your first line, if you thought you couldn't log that past time while training for your private, what changed that would allow it to be logged after you got the Certificate?
In another line you said that the previous time was "technically not legal", what makes it legal now?

Jim

I'm not sure what your looking for Champ, but what I wrote isn't that complicated and I think you read into this too deep. I have old logbooks that contain my pre-certificate hours and my current log for my "signed-off, endorsed, Certificate hours". I guess I should've been a little more specific.

[Infidel]

Bill, it was in a bunch of 172's. I went to Sporty'-Cincinnati Aviation on Nov.4th and hit it hard from sunrise to sunset and finished it on the 15th and was driving back home that evening. An excellent flint school and a great group of people.

[Bill Greenwood]

Infidel, really congratulations! We read so many stories on this website and others, where someone says they want to be a pilot if they only had more money or more time or they lived in a better place or didn't have work or school, lot's of other reasons, valid or not. And almost as sad is the stories of people who go take a few lessons, and either quit or let the FBO or CFI drag it on and on. It is really great to hear of someone who went for and got it.
Just curious, do you think you got top knowledge or was it so concentrated that some of it is not retained? I know so many times a student will come to a flight school and end up taking maybe one lesson every week or two and moving pretty slowly. I know that in business and industry, that is not the way learning is done. If IBM needs to send a team to a foreign country, they aren't going to take one language lesson every 10 days or so, they are likely to get in a concentrated program. My Air Force training as a mechanic and my business training as a stock broker, were both pretty much every week day.
I think the basic training as a private pilot, or these days as a sport pilot or a glider pilot, are some of the most fun and interesting of all the flying that I have done in 35 years as a pilot. It is all new and cool. Too many people find it stressful or make it that way, and it should be an enjoyable process, both daily as you go along and as you reach the goal. The closest I have done to a concentred training was going to Flightsafety in Vero Beach for instrument. I have also done some concentrated weekend formation clinics that were a lot of fun and good learning, but that is not the same as a rating in the FAA way.

So what's next? Two good things about learning in a 172: 1st. They are safe for the average student and 2nd. Most every plane you fly after that is going to be more exciting.

And yes I hear they have some "flinty" types at Sportys who can sharpen a student.

You can put anything you want in your log book, I have one for hang gliders, and I have recorded some dual flight time in twins and a jet, etc, because I was the one doing the flying. But when you apply for a flight rating, then you must use only the hours that qualify for that rating.

[Infidel]

Infidel, really congratulations! We read so many stories on this website and others, where someone says they want to be a pilot if they only had more money or more time or they lived in a better place or didn't have work or school, lot's of other reasons, valid or not. And almost as sad is the stories of people who go take a few lessons, and either quit or let the FBO or CFI drag it on and on. It is really great to hear of someone who went for and got it.
Just curious, do you think you got top knowledge or was it so concentrated that some of it is not retained? I know so many times a student will come to a flight school and end up taking maybe one lesson every week or two and moving pretty slowly. I know that in business and industry, that is not the way learning is done. If IBM needs to send a team to a foreign country, they aren't going to take one language lesson every 10 days or so, they are likely to get in a concentrated program. My Air Force training as a mechanic and my business training as a stock broker, were both pretty much every week day.
I think the basic training as a private pilot, or these days as a sport pilot or a glider pilot, are some of the most fun and interesting of all the flying that I have done in 35 years as a pilot. It is all new and cool. Too many people find it stressful or make it that way, and it should be an enjoyable process, both daily as you go along and as you reach the goal. The closest I have done to a concentred training was going to Flightsafety in Vero Beach for instrument. I have also done some concentrated weekend formation clinics that were a lot of fun and good learning, but that is not the same as a rating in the FAA way.

So what's next? Two good things about learning in a 172: 1st. They are safe for the average student and 2nd. Most every plane you fly after that is going to be more exciting.

And yes I hear they have some "flinty" types at Sportys who can sharpen a student.

You can put anything you want in your log book, I have one for hang gliders, and I have recorded some dual flight time in twins and a jet, etc, because I was the one doing the flying. But when you apply for a flight rating, then you must use only the hours that qualify for that rating.

Thank you Bill. I committed to the accelerated training because I'm one of those guys that easily goes adrift and loses focus of the big picture. I started my training back in 1999 in my fathers 172 and my instructor signed me off to solo at 11 hours. Was I ready to solo? Heck no and when I think back to that day, I'm suprised I survived. (Grin) I've been flying ever since though and over the years have immersed myself in ground school training and pretty much review it all and repeat the process every year or so. Mainly, in the crappy winter months when our runway is covered in snow.

I'd recommend an accelerated training course for someone that has some hours and experience under their belt and are having a hard time completing their goal. Sporty's and Hal Sheevers were great! They allowed me to park and camp in my RV in the parking lot and even gave me a key to the building for after hours. The main thing I needed when I went was some hours with a CFI, my X-country flights, night X-Country and landings. Prior to going, I had 200+ hours in various makes of aircraft. RV's, Mooney Ovation, 172, 182, and a slew of LSA's. So getting it done in the time frame I was there wasn't that hard for me. I think the toughest thing was acclimating myself to using a control yoke again instead of a stick.

The next thing on my list is a tail wheel endorsement, then instrument. (Sorry if there's a bunch of typos. Typing on this Ipad is a pain in the rear!)

[martymayes]

Bill, it was in a bunch of 172's. I went to Sporty'-Cincinnati Aviation on Nov.4th and hit it hard from sunrise to sunset and finished it on the 15th and was driving back home that evening. An excellent flint school and a great group of people.

Outstanding! Glad you found something that worked for you.

[martymayes]

Anyhow, can hours/time as PIC now be included in my hour log if those hours were pre-certificate and technically not legal? I suspect an insurance company will only care and consider what "legal" hours are recorded, but really have no idea.

According to §61.52, some aeronautical experience obtained in ultralight vehicles can be used toward other certificates and ratings but not much of that is going to help you. Most insurance apps I have filled out ask for flight time without regard to where it came from. However, if something happens, I suppose they would expect your stated experience should match what's in your pilot logbook. And you certainly don't want anything illegal in your logbook.

[Infidel]

According to §61.52, some aeronautical experience obtained in ultralight vehicles can be used toward other certificates and ratings but not much of that is going to help you. Most insurance apps I have filled out ask for flight time without regard to where it came from. However, if something happens, I suppose they would expect your stated experience should match what's in your pilot logbook. And you certainly don't want anything illegal in your logbook.

Thanks Marty & to the point!