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Thread: Charts or iPads?

  1. #21
    MickYoumans's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cdrmuetzel@juno.com View Post
    geepers, folks, just search for "paper charts advisory circular" and find out for sure. you really want to bet your certificate on stuff you read on a forum?

    http://www.faa.gov/regulations_polic...cumentID/73540
    I knew it was legal, but also knew there were conditions and limitations. I was just making a general statement in my post above. Thanks for posting the link. Item 6 page 3 clearly defines what constitutes a legal EFB.

  2. #22
    zaitcev's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rwanttaja View Post
    Have to hold out for Google Glass.
    I know an early adopter who's became somewhat disillusioned. Apparently the disconnected operation is plain impossible (with the existing software), and the battery life sucks. If you can rig something like Glass using onboard power and autonomous computing, it may be interesting. BTW, I fly in D&C K10 helmet, which may serve as a base...

  3. #23
    Sam Buchanan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cdrmuetzel@juno.com View Post
    geepers, folks, just search for "paper charts advisory circular" and find out for sure. you really want to bet your certificate on stuff you read on a forum?

    http://www.faa.gov/regulations_polic...cumentID/73540
    Let's just cut to the chase--paragraph 7 of the above document:

    "7. GENERAL CONSIDERATIONS.

    The in-flight use of EFB systems to depict images in lieu of paper reference material is the decision of the aircraft
    operator and the pilot-in-command. Any Type A or Type B EFB application, as defined in AC 120-76A, may be
    substituted for the paper equivalent. It is suggested that a secondary or backup source of aeronautical inform
    ation
    or paper reference material necessary for the flight be available to the pilot in the aircraft. The

    secondary or backup information may be either traditional paper-based material or displayed
    electronically by other means. Class 1 and Class 2 EFB can be used during all phases of flight
    operations in lieu of paper reference material when the information displayed meets the following criteria........"

    Suffice it to say iPads and similar tablets, aviation GPS devices that contain an up-to-date aeronautical database for the area encompassed by the flight, and EFIS devices that contain the same meet the requirements of this circular.....and have since 2007. It is not necessary to carry any paper products per regulation if devices described above are onboard the aircraft and available to the pilot in command.

    It is the decision of the pilot as to whether or not he/she is proficient with operating these devices in the flight environment.
    Last edited by Sam Buchanan; 01-02-2014 at 12:48 PM.
    Sam Buchanan
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  4. #24

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    If you plan on flying near a TFR, you may want a GPS, tablet or EFB on board. One that records your track. I'm just saying that some day you may need more than just your word and reputation.


    I like paper charts too. I'm not either/or.The devil is in the details. A while back I was following traffic into a Class D airport. I made my calls, but I never heard the other guy. I switched my #2 com to the old CTAF on a hunch. There he was. He called downwind, base and final like a pro. Meanwhile, I heard the the tower on my #1 make repeated calls to reply, rock his wings or do something. I transmitted on #2 com " Aircraft short final for 12, talk to the tower on (freq)" .


    When he established contact, he asked "When did you put in a tower here?" The controller replied "It was here when I was assigned eight years ago." Fortunatly there were no conflicts so no action taken.


    Bob

  5. #25
    miemsed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Greenwood View Post
    Miemsed, thanks for trying to answer my questions. It sounds like you, unlike me or many other pilots, really do fly ifr and many places not local, and do use the electronic aids.

    One thing I'd like to know is how while flying an iLS approach you can divert your attention to picking up an ipad, turning it on, ( any warm up time) and bringing up the correct approach chart.
    I stay ifr legal, ( my insurance co requires it) and I find it takes a lot of concentration and accurate flying to stay on course; I certainly could never divert my attention in mid approach to switch to the ipad. I think I would have full needles off center pretty quickly. I realize that the ipad failing in mid approach in the real world would not be likely.
    Well we were level at 2500 feet and had not yet intercepted the glideslope so it really was no big deal. I have an iPad 3 with a smart case. I leave foreflight open after filing my flight plan and just close the cover which turns off the iPad. When I open up the cover foreflight is open and there is no warm up time. Also I had already briefed the approach and jotted down the minimums and other info on my kneeboard so I really could have flown the approach at that point but the examiner wanted to see if I had access to an approach plate if the Garmin 796 failed. I did and he accepted it. I fully brief an approach and jot down a few things like minimums, initial steps for the missed onto a piece of paper on my knee board. So if I had a 796 failure I really could just finish the approach. If for some reason I could not and did not feel I could access the iPad backup, I would just go missed and pull up the plate on the iPad and go again.

    I am not trying to convince anyone else to go paperless. It is not for everyone. For me, I love being able to wake up on a sat or sun morning and decide let's fly to SC today. I know I have all the charts I need. When I was using paper I am sure I would find a problem with not having every chart I needed or realizing the charts I had were expired. If I realized it with the iPad or GPS, I would just have to spend 15 mins to 30 mins downloading the charts. If I were depending on paper charts, I would not be able to get them. Even if the FBO at my airport was open, they do not carry charts.

    I really do love the paperless solution. For VFR or IFR low charts the 796 and iPad for that matter allow you to zoom in and out to get great detail on a chart which for me is far superior to folding and unfolding a chart in flight.

    Again I am not saying paperless is for everyone but I do believe a great deal of pilots have gone paperless. I could be wrong but I do not believe I am blazing any trails here as I sense that many pilots went paperless long before I did.

    Along with the panel mount GTN 650 I have an STEC 30 auto pilot with a GPSS module. That does help to reduce work load somewhat but it really is not hard to turn on an iPad to use as a back up for charts

    Happy flying with paper or without.
    Last edited by miemsed; 01-02-2014 at 05:41 PM.
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  6. #26

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    You guys are really going to love the new method going into effect at Airventure/Oshkosh this year.

    The porta potties will be divided into two types:
    1.. For the super up to date, high tech, modern types, one set of potties will be paperless.
    2. For old fashioned guys like me, the other half of the potties will have the same paper as before.

    P S Be sure and tell your ladies to use the high tech ones with you, they are going to love it, especially if you have kids also.
    Last edited by Bill Greenwood; 01-02-2014 at 10:55 PM.

  7. #27
    rwanttaja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Greenwood View Post
    You guys are really going to love the new method going into effect at Airventure/Oshkosh this year.

    The porta potties will be divided into two types:
    1.. For the super up tp date, high tech, modern types, one set of potties will be paperless.
    2. For old fashioned guys like me, the other half of the potties will have paper as before.
    Well, you guys aren't too far apart....Miemsed and the others seem to feel that hard-copy charts are best suited for #2 (At least in your numbering scheme).

    That material *is* a bit slick, though....Charmin it ain't.

    Ron Wanttaja
    Last edited by rwanttaja; 01-02-2014 at 08:16 PM. Reason: misdirection

  8. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by MickYoumans View Post
    I knew it was legal, but also knew there were conditions and limitations. I was just making a general statement in my post above. Thanks for posting the link. Item 6 page 3 clearly defines what constitutes a legal EFB.
    Mick, I re-read my post that had copied part of yours and publicly apologize for the smart-aleck tone.

  9. #29
    MickYoumans's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cdrmuetzel@juno.com View Post
    Mick, I re-read my post that had copied part of yours and publicly apologize for the smart-aleck tone.
    No problem. Don't worry about it. I'm glad you posted the link that would clarify the EFB requirements for everyone. To be honest, while I was typing my post, I knew there were certain limitations involved (that's why my original comment had a certain vagueness to it) but I was too lazy to stop and go look up the details. I appreciate you providing the link so we could all access it.

  10. #30

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    Hi everyone, I noticed that this thread seemed to get a little off topic with the legality aspect of using tablets in place of physical charts. Now that we clearly know its legal, does anybody use one to actually replace your charts? Also I think there is some misunderstanding with the original question about batteries 'failing.' Failing and dieing are two different things. While lit-ion have been know to 'fail' (not to ever work again) it is rare. While your battery will generally die within 4 or so hours of heavy use. So in other words do you have auxiliary power for your pad? Thanks
    Scott Nelson

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