Charts or iPads?

[rwanttaja]

Strap the Ipad to your leg and use your phone as a backup. No worries and no paper charts to fly away or ever purchase again. Foreflight and some other apps are truly game changers. Plus the Ipad has hundreds of other uses.

Daniel, I'm sure you're right, but it's really not needed for the kind of flying I do. I generally don't go much further than 80 miles from home, and the topography of Western Washington not only gives me some good natural Navaids (a set of volcanos), but it tends to funnel me on easily-followed routes. I have a GPS (Garmin hiking unit, cost $100) but only use it two or three flights a year.

It's fun to consider using some of the more-modern electronics, but when I fly, I set the radio to 122.8, the altimeter to 58 feet, and the calendar to 1932.

Though if there's an App that'll project a gunsight reticule to the inside of the windshield, I'd be willing to reconsider. :-)

Ron Wanttaja

[Rod Schneider]

Bill, to answer question 4, an iPad screen is 9.7 inches diagonal unless it's the smaller iPad Mini. In Foreflight, the screen can be zoomed in or out as much as the user desires. I use the iPad for navigation and have not missed paper charts at all. As far as backups go, I have a Garmin 296 in the panel and an iPhone with Foreflight, so there are 3 independent sources, each with battery power available........

[miemsed]

On the topic of Flying into Controlled airports, I wrote about having a sectional, that is a real chart.
Sam Buchanan disagreed and pointed out that with an ipad one could have every Ifr chart and approach chart as well as vfr sectionals and wac on the tablet.

So, here are a few questions for Sam and others that promote the iPad over charts.

1. How long has it been since you flew outside of the area on your local WAC chart?
2. How many actual Ifr approaches did you make this year?
3. How long has it been since you made an actual Ifr approach outside your local state/area where you needed ifr charts from another part of the country?
4. A sectional chart is roughly 2 x3 feet per side, so usually to show a state and more, and covers a good bit of area. How big is the screen on the iPad? Is it about 2x3 inches?
5. Is it easier to control the attitude of a plane when you can see the whole horizon out the window or easier when you are flying blind on just a 2 1/2 inch attitude indicator?
6. Do ipads ever fail, such as batteries running down? Have you ever had a battery fail in a real chart?
7. Is it legal for a pilot to fly with no real charts?, keeping in mind the rule about "having all information".
8. If you are taking a flight test, the instructor may "fail" an engine and you are expected to make an emergency landing.
If you are taking a flight test, with an ipad. but without real charts, and the instructor "fails" (turns off) your ipad, how do you navigate, and or fly into an airport or an ifr approach?


Now, I can see the advantages of having an iPad as a helpful addition, and I might even get one this year and maybe learn to use it, but I also see some disadvantages of it vs. real charts.
For a charter or airline pilot who actually needs charts from all over the country it might be good. For most of us costs may also be and issue. An ipad with a chart subscirption might run $500 and for that price one can get 50 sectionals.

I will take a try at a few of your questions. I fly my 1973 piper PA-28-180 all over the east half of the county every year. My wife and I travel in it to visit family and for vacation. Last year we flew from MI, to PA, NY, Maine, NC and SC. Paper charts would have been a pain to keep updated. I have a foreflight subscription at $149 per year which gives me everything I need but only use it for preflight planning and as a backup in the aircraft. In the aircraft I have a Garmin 796 on a yoke mount that is used as primary for VFR/IFR charts and approach plates. Panel mount GTN 650 for IFR navigation. I made about 20 actual IFR approaches last year. Not counting practice ones. I have never had the yoke mounted GPS fail. I do not use the IPAD in flight, except once in a while to check for an intersection location ATC gives me before I decide if I want to accept it and enter it into the 650. So again the IPAD is my backup. As far as I know, it is completely legal to fly without paper charts. I have been flying for about 9 years and went paperless about 2 years ago when just a VFR pilot. I took my IFR check ride in November of 2012 and the examiner had no problem with me not having any paper charts. However while on the ILS approach for the check ride he indicated that my Garmin 796 had just failed and since I was using the 796 to display the approach plate, he wanted to know what I was going to do,for,an approach plate. Before every flight after filing my flight plan on foreflight, I leave foreflight open and just turn off the IPAD. I just picked up my iPad turned it on to foreflight and pulled up the geo referenced approach plate. He said fine and had no further questions about charts.

I know I did not answer all your questions but paperless is great for me. No problem with anyone who wants to carry paper just glad I do not have to anymore.

[Jeff Boatright]

New Ap, called "Smartbutt". :-)


...
Space is often at a premium in a single-seater, though, and I'd probably have to rig up some sort of folding arm so I could push it away while getting in and out.

WWII Navy airplanes often had pull-out chart tables at the bottom (or even the middle) of the instrument panel.

Attachment 3601

I've been tempted to try add something like this to the Fly Baby... it's a free run for ten inches or so under the panel, so I could put in a short pull-out table there. There's a potential for interfering with the stick, though (especially if something broke), and my knee room is tight enough already.
...
Ron "Cheap is my middle name" Wanttaja

Here's a Pietenpol version: http://www.westcoastpiet.com/images/...s/IMG_3917.JPG

[Bill Greenwood]

Miemsed, thanks for trying to answer my questions. It sounds like you, unlike me or many other pilots, really do fly ifr and many places not local, and do use the electronic aids.

One thing I'd like to know is how while flying an iLS approach you can divert your attention to picking up an ipad, turning it on, ( any warm up time) and bringing up the correct approach chart.
I stay ifr legal, ( my insurance co requires it) and I find it takes a lot of concentration and accurate flying to stay on course; I certainly could never divert my attention in mid approach to switch to the ipad. I think I would have full needles off center pretty quickly. I realize that the ipad failing in mid approach in the real world would not be likely.

[Mike M]

... gave me a Galaxy Tab. a

Tab2 has gps, so worth searching your unit. Great free app for android is avare from the google play store. I use it in a tab2 10.1 inch screen. which is better, paper or plastic? Which do you prefer, phillips head or straight slot? Tool selection depends on the job. Your mileage may vary.

P.S. ladies and gentlemen, we are all grownups here. No need to guess, plead, b.s. each other about whether electronic charts are legal for pt91 ops. If you don't know, your last couple flight reviews were deficient. The FAA AC was issued in 2007. Go tell your CFI you were not listening, get it re-explained.

[Jeff Boatright]

...

P.S. ladies and gentlemen, we are all grownups here...

Assumes facts not in evidence! After all, I'm on this forum and my wife was just reminding me this morning as to how my child-like qualities are not appreciated when it comes to chores, yearly planning, TV program choices, etc., etc.

[rleffler]

Miemsed, thanks for trying to answer my questions. It sounds like you, unlike me or many other pilots, really do fly ifr and many places not local, and do use the electronic aids.

One thing I'd like to know is how while flying an iLS approach you can divert your attention to picking up an ipad, turning it on, ( any warm up time) and bringing up the correct approach chart.
I stay ifr legal, ( my insurance co requires it) and I find it takes a lot of concentration and accurate flying to stay on course; I certainly could never divert my attention in mid approach to switch to the ipad. I think I would have full needles off center pretty quickly. I realize that the ipad failing in mid approach in the real world would not be likely.

I'm similiar to Miemsed. Moving maps and approach plates are viewable on any one of the three EFIS on my panel in my RV-10. These are both geo-referenced so there is an aircraft icon indicating my current position on them. The fourth EFIS doesn't have this capability, it's purely just a back-up fail safe. I'm finding flying with a modern EFIS much easier than a standard six pack. The information is more consolidated and minimizes head and eye movement, allowing me to stay focused better.

I also have an iPad in the cockpit with WingX on it that has sectionals, ifr charts, and approach plates on it as well. They are also on my iPhone, but I do admit that's a little harder to read. Toss in a GTN650 and a multi-axis autopilot and the workload is cut down even further. If I get to a point where I have to switch to the iPad to reference while flying, I've had multiple severe system failures (i.e. three dead EFIS and a dead GTN650). Fortunately, the odds of that happening is extremely small.

The current model of my EFIS can also display both sectionals and IFR charts, but timing is everything and I have the previous hardware version in my RV.

I am just coming out of Phase 1, so now it's time to get my IPC knocked out that lapsed while building.

[MickYoumans]

I don't know of any portable devices that are approved for primary IFR navigation, but the iPad running WingX or Foreflight is very easy to use and is very nice for backup navigation and is a great EFB for charts and plates. With that disclaimer said, I'll try to address some of your questions;

4. A sectional chart is roughly 2 x3 feet per side, so usually to show a state and more, and covers a good bit of area. How big is the screen on the iPad? Is it about 3x3 inches?

The iPad screen is 9.7" diagonally. The neat thing with the iPad is you can take you finger and scroll around the screen to see any portion of a sectional. In WingX all of the sectionals are 'stitched' together so that you go seamlessly from one sectional to another. With paper you would have to use multiple sectionals to fly across the country. With WingX you just seamlessly continue right on to the next sectional. The same applies for IFR charts too. The iPad allows you to pinch zoom in and out on your sectional to see as little or as much detail as you want on your screen. WingX also has overlays for terrain, TFR's, obstacles, airspaces, airways, jetways, fixes, runways and ADS-B radar that you can turn on and off as desired to really make those pop out on your map. You can also view your map as "North Up" or "Track Up". With my WingX subscription, my charts are always up to date and I don't have to worry about whether I will have the needed maps and charts for a trip, they are all already there.

6. Do ipads ever fail, such as batteries running down?

I think some of the early iPad 1's could overheat and shutoff, but I have not heard of anyone complaining of this with the iPad 2 or newer versions. I live in Georgia where the summer temperatures get pretty hot and I have not had this problem with my iPad 2 mounted on a RAM yoke mount. I suppose you could have a battery or some other type failure with the iPad, but I have been flying with mine over four years now with no issues. You can also plug your iPad up to the accessory power port in your plane for external battery power. I also have WingX on my iPhone as a backup that I can pull out and use if my iPad died for some reason.

Have you ever had a battery fail in a real chart?

No, but on the flip side I've never seen a real chart show me my geo-referenced position on it either. One of the neat features in WingX is the split screen. I can set up one half of the screen to display my sectional and the other half to show my GPS approach plate. I usually just leave it full screen on the sectional when I'm out away from my destination airport, then click the "Screen" button to go split screen with the approach plate when I get near my destination. I can also easily turn off the sectional and have only the approach plate displayed full screen. You can zoom in and out on the approach plates just like you can on a sectional too. The approach plate also shows my geo-referenced position on the plate. In addition I program the approach waypoints into my 'route' so that WingX is displaying the exact distance to my next waypoint and exact distance to my destination at the top of my screen. The airport diagrams are also georeferenced so you know exactly where you are on the ground too.

7. Is it legal for a pilot to fly with no real charts?, keeping in mind the rule about "having all information".

As far as I know it is legal to fly with the charts in a EFB without paper copies. The charts in WingX are copies of the 'real' charts and they are always current (if you do the database updates when WingX flags you to do so). The database updates are included in the annual subscription and are extremely easy to do on the iPad over a WiFi connection. The cool thing with the WingX subscription you have ALL of the VFR Sectionals, IFR Enroutes, Approach Plates and Airport Diagrams for the US. I could not begin to have all of this on paper. Not to mention what a pain it would be to use on paper.

8. If you are taking a flight test, the instructor may "fail" an engine and you are expected to make an emergency landing.
If you are taking a flight test, with an ipad. but without real charts, and the instructor "fails" (turns off) your ipad, how do you navigate, and or fly into an airport or an ifr approach?

Yes, I would recommend having a EFB backup. The neat thing about WingX is that I can run a second copy on an iPhone or another iPad (which I do) and that will suffice as sufficient backup. I do keep a sectional for my local area and an airport directory in my plane. I haven't used them in four years, but they are there if needed. Otherwise I have strictly been flying from my iPad.

An ipad with a chart subscirption might run $500

WingX is $100 per year or $200 for three years ($67 per year) with all maps and charts. If you want your approach charts to show your geo-referenced position that is $75 extra and Synthetic Vision is also $100 extra. For $67 a year for the three year deal, it is hard for me to justify buying the paper documents considering all of the other neat things WingX does for me.


WingX also has so many neat features for flight planning and to file / close flight plans electronically. It also has all of the A/FD and AOPA information for each airport. WingX also has a Synthetic Vision option that is pretty neat too. There are just too many neat little features and options in the program to talk about them here.

Even though I have been referrencing WingX since it is what I use, I know ForeFlight and Garmin Pilot have many of the same features too. If anybody is considering getting an iPad and one of these programs, I would suggest that you download the free 30 day trial version and put them all through the paces before deciding on one. Learn the programs on the ground but put them through the paces in the air before deciding. What seems great flying in the La-Z-Boy in the den might not be so easy to read and navigate around when bouncing in an airplane.

[Mike M]

...As far as I know it is legal to fly with the charts in a EFB without paper copies...

geepers, folks, just search for "paper charts advisory circular" and find out for sure. you really want to bet your certificate on stuff you read on a forum?

http://www.faa.gov/regulations_polic...cumentID/73540