Thanks much for the history lesson. As a longtime EAAer, but relative newcomer to the EAB world, I had no idea of the history behind condition inspections, or the debt of gratitude owed to Paul.
Thanks much for the history lesson. As a longtime EAAer, but relative newcomer to the EAB world, I had no idea of the history behind condition inspections, or the debt of gratitude owed to Paul.
I had to switch A&Ps on my Fly Baby last year, and the new guy hasn't been out of school long and hadn't had much E-AB experience. He *is* a good A&P, though, nice and picky and very knowledgeable about the hardware.
We've had a few discussions (they're not arguments, 'cause only his vote counts). Last year, he insisted on performing some 50-year-old ADs on accessories. This year, he asked me to turn on the nav lights and strobes, and I had to point out that I couldn't since I hadn't hooked 'em back up since rebuilding the electrical system 18 months ago. This threw him a bit; he started wondering if I had to keep the airplane in the same configuration as when it was originally licensed or go back through a test phase. I gently disagreed, he did his own research, and there was no problem.
Too bad, though. I was ready to offer to put "INOPERATIVE" signs next to the switches. Since the switches are in a drawer at home, this would have been no problem. :-)
Hey, EAA: With the new "Non Commercial" category on the way, you should work with the FAA to issue an Advisory Circular on Condition Inspections. This should apply to both the new category, and to those of us who have to hire mechanics for our homebuilt condition inspections.
Ron Wanttaja
I think we've had this discussion about A&Ps and E-AB Aircraft before. Some A&Ps avoid E-AB work because it is a significant increase in their insurance if they want to include E-AB aircraft work under their insurance. So the Insurance companies clearly see this as an additional liability. For me, I pick and choose. I will only inspect an E-AB aircraft that I think is well built and has an owner that is engaged (hands on) with me in the maintenance. Whether one can mitigate liability or not by signing as serviceable rather than airworthy is up to the lawyers, but the mechanic is still paying the lawyer to defend him.
But putting all the lawyer stuff aside, for me, it's really a matter of whether I want to look at my prospective customer's family later down the line after he has created a smoking hole in the ground and me wondering if there was anything else I could have done either as a mechanic or as a friend to have prevented it. I have had the distinct displeasure of that experience with both certificated and E-AB aircraft when I was the last mechanic to turn a wrench on it. It's a sickening feeling even if you are not at fault. I don't enjoy meeting with the NTSB or discussing a pilot friend's demise with his/her loved ones. The fact is, it happens more often with E-AB aircraft for a variety of reasons. So I am very picky about which ones I will work on. With my friends that have either built or bought their own E-AB aircraft, I donate many, many hours towards helping them make sure they have a sound steed underneath them. For others that are building a design that, in my opinion, is marginal in design, strength, or is using an engine I wouldn't fly, I stay far away from them. I don't actively discourage them, but I also can not in good conscience help facilitate someone killing themselves. I have seen the end result too often.
You may have just bought a pristine Roger Ramjet E-AB plane that you think is the cat's pajamas, but as a mechanic, I am not obligated to work on it. Part of my judgement is whether I think there is a good chance that you are going to kill yourself in that plane, whether it's the plane's fault or my opinion that the pilot is not up to flying that plane. If I think there's a good probability that it's going to get you killed, you'll have to find someone else to do your inspection.
Many will vehemently disagree with my view point, but this is all based on my experience in having owned 4 E-AB aircraft, 3 of which I built, and being a long time hobby A&P, and EAA Chapter President. We all have to make those decisions for ourselves.
-CubBuilder
Last edited by cub builder; 11-27-2013 at 03:25 PM.
Oh they teach them all about regulations. But inspections for amateur built airplanes are not in the regulations.Originally Posted by 1600vw
Again, the language for recording a condition inspection is right there in the operating limitations. Takes about ~2 min to read it.All A&P's wanted to sign off my airplane as airworthy.
Last edited by martymayes; 11-27-2013 at 05:51 PM.
the rest of your post was thoughtful and discrete, too. thank you. it explains well why those of us who have A&P work on some, not on others. so. folks, if you have an E-AB and ask cub builder or me or some other folks to work on it and we take a look at you and your aircraft but suddenly remember we're "too busy" - y'all might want to consider why.
Again, the language for recording a condition inspection is right there in the operating limitations. Takes about ~2 min to read it.[/QUOTE]
I know this and you know this..then I wonder why the A&P's signed it they way they did. I had to start asking...what are you going to put in my log book. Its as simple as you state above, why can't the people whom are trained to do this get it correct?
Instead of telling the person looking for a condition inspection you are to busy, why not look the man straight in the eyes and tell him, I do not like what I see in your airplane and in you. Correct this and we will talk. Telling the person you are to busy helps him squat. He walks away believing you are indeed to busy or just a jerk.
Why not be up front and honest with the owner/pilot. Maybe they will step back and take a long look at the situation. If they don't its not on you, you tried to explain the problems.
Tony
Ron Wanttaja:
Last year while doing the repairs and getting my airplane ready for its condition inspection I had an A&P walk by and asked. Is that part " I forget what they call an airworthy part or one made for a certified airplane" But he asked if this part was certified for aviation use. I told him I could put a kitchen sink in my airplane and fly it and its legal. We had a long talk about that.
I then started pointing out all the non-aviation parts on my airplane. He shook his head walking away saying stuff like I am nuts, crazy, stupid, I believe a few other words came out of his mouth before he got out of ear shot or I could not hear him anymore. I just stood their smiling. The last thing I heard him say....Don't ask me to sign that thing as airworthy.
Don't call a person a coward and a liar on a public forum. Check your private messages.
{"Instead of telling the person looking for a condition inspection you are to busy, why not look the man straight in the eyes and tell him, I do not like what I see in your airplane and in you. Correct this and we will talk."
that's the first step i take, telling them what should be obvious. since it was not obvious to them, they usually don't listen or don't understand and certainly don't "...step back and take a long look at the situation."
what you are writing in the thread proves what i'm saying.
"Last year while doing the repairs and getting my airplane ready for its condition inspection I had an A&P walk by and asked. Is that part " I forget what they call an airworthy part or one made for a certified airplane" But he asked if this part was certified for aviation use. I told him I could put a kitchen sink in my airplane and fly it and its legal. We had a long talk about that. I then started pointing out all the non-aviation parts on my airplane. He shook his head walking away..."
go back and read your posts of Yesterday, 06:34 and 09:18 AM, today at 6:23 and 6:56 AM. everybody else is an idiot, only you know how to do it right, you're using non-aircraft parts intentionally, and you're argumentative about it. think it over.}
This was sent to me in a private message.
Me telling an A&P when I am working on my Azusa Brakes and wheels is being a know it all as you call me...You are all wet.....I do not claim to know everything but I know what I am talking about here.
Do not send me a private message like this and not expect me to post it to the world.
I have all the right in the world to work on and install Azusa brakes....argumentative you call me.
Tony
Last edited by 1600vw; 11-29-2013 at 07:50 AM.
The A&P really got a kick out of my wheel barrow tires....They are in the designs the plans call for wheel barrow tires, and uzusa brakes, am I wrong for using them? Everyone says stick to the plans?
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