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Thread: Repairs on an Experimental/AB

  1. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1600vw View Post
    I did not read the article but commented on a posting. Someone whom read the article should respond to this, and don't post the article then expect me to respond. Seems you have the link and know what this is about, why tell me to do this?

    Tony
    old adage, want something done correctly do it yourself. i recommended you take action since you were the one who so elegantly and grammatically wrote that someone should do something about it. guess you weren't really concerned. my mistake.

  2. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by cdrmuetzel@juno.com View Post
    old adage, want something done correctly do it yourself. i recommended you take action since you were the one who so elegantly and grammatically wrote that someone should do something about it. guess you weren't really concerned. my mistake.

    The years I have been in aviation you can count on one hand. Do not throw this at me. Let the others whom claim to know it all and walk over everything I have learned in this short time deal with it.

    Tony

  3. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by martymayes View Post
    Tony, I was both a student and instructor at an FAA Part 147 A&P school. I can assure you, inspecting homebuilt aircraft is not part of the curriculum. Not sure how an A&P is supposed to magically possess that information. They have to learn it, just like you did. Perhaps you can reference FAA Order 8130.2.
    You mean to tell me when an A&P goes through school they do not explain the regs to them or have to learn them? I learned this by being an EAB owner and making it my duty to know all I can about EAB's. So I went to the source, the EAA. Watched every Webinar I could and I learned it there. They have a webinar about this. Now do not ask me to show you a link, find it yourself and learn some stuff as you do it. Only way to learn.
    The man from the FAA whom spoke about IA's and Condition inspection said quote, "if you have an IA sign your condition inspection as an IA I will call him in my office and explain the regs to him". Watch the webinar, watch all the webinars and learn somethings. Now if you post, you will learn nothing from those webinar's, you are already behind and will never catch up.

    Tony

  4. #14
    Chad Jensen's Avatar
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    No need for any sort of argument on this subject here fella's. Mrs. Laboda is incorrect, we know that. Kitplanes should respond.

    An A&P is only required to sign off on the annual condition inspection (you as an owner can help if you want) if the owner does not hold the repairman certificate. IA is not required.

    I haven't gone to A&P school, but I worked in aircraft sales for almost 10 years prior to coming to EAA where I worked side by side with a number of A&P's...many of them in their 60's who have been turning wrenches on airplanes for 40+ years. It wasn't until I began building my RV-7 in 2005 that any of these guys were aware of how maintenance worked on EAB's. Weird, but true. They don't teach it in A&P school from what I am told.
    Chad Jensen
    EAA #755575

  5. #15
    Matt Gonitzke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1600vw View Post
    You mean to tell me when an A&P goes through school they do not explain the regs to them or have to learn them?
    I am currently in A&P school...they teach the regs (most of the emphasis is on the regs and paperwork, not as much on how to actually do maintenance part of the work. That's it's own scary story though...) but only what applies to aircraft with a type certificate, as 99% of these mechanics will never touch an EAB. Experimentals are not part of the curriculum in any way. If you're interested in knowing what is and isn't covered, you can go to the FAA website and view the PTS for General, Airframe, and Powerplant, just like you can for the pilot ratings.

  6. #16
    cub builder's Avatar
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    FWIW, as an A&P that got my ticket through work and study, I never saw one single thing in the study curriculum regarding dealing with E-AB aircraft. The FAA pushed it onto A&Ps simply because in order to get their A&P tickets, they had to demonstrate a level of knowledge in every area of aircraft construction and repair methodology. The FAA concluded that this level of knowledge about aircraft construction and repair methods should be sufficient to enable them to do a safety condition inspection on an E-AB aircraft. However, dealing specifically with E-AB aircraft is not included in any curriculum I have seen. Most A&Ps treat an E-AB condition inspection the same as a 100 hr inspection.

    So let's step back in time a bit and look at the history of how we got where we are. When I bought my first E-AB aircraft in 1979, only the FAA could sign an annual inspection on an E-AB aircraft. That's right, let's all look in horror at what it would take now days to get someone from your local GADO (now FSDO) office to stop in annually to inspect your aircraft. What was happening is that the builders were doing their own annuals and putting it in the logs, but had to get someone from GADO to look at the plane and endorse the inspection. So, one of three things happened.

    1. The GADO office would hold a periodic "Inspection Day" at an uncontrolled field away from their busy airport where the GADO office was located. Many E-AB aircraft would fly in so the inspectors could look at their planes and endorse the logs. Good idea, but what if they found something that would render the plane as unairworthy? That leaves the owner with his plane grounded away from home. How thorough would you rate an inspection where an inspector may look over 10 - 20 planes during the day? Yeah. Not so good.

    2. If you missed the "Inspection Day", you had to fly your plane to the FAA Office provided the plane was still in annual. For me, that meant I had to fly my non-electric, no radio, no transponder plane into an ARSA (now class C) airport to have an inspector with no tools walk out to take a gander at the plane and endorse my log books. Yeah. Another high quality inspection.

    3. If the plane was out of annual, you had to get an Airworthiness Inspector to get out of the office and drive to your location to take a quick look at your plane and endorse your log books. Think about what that would take to make it happen today!

    As the number of E-AB aircraft were increasing, this was becoming burdensome to the FAA and the cursory inspections really had very little value. I know the one inspection I had under these rules consisted of my flying into an ARSA with no radio and landing with no light signals as the tower personnel were giving me light signals through the sunshade in the tower, which rendered them as not visible. I taxied to the GADO office where I met the inspector who pulled the prop through to check compression, looked under a couple of inspection panels, griped about me not having cut out every inspection hole in the wings, then signed the logs. Altogether, this took about 30 minutes. Then I hand propped my plane taxied out amongst all the passenger jet traffic while using light signals and departed using light signals from the tower. Not exactly a high quality inspection or an ideal way to be flying in and out of busy airports where the GADO offices were located.

    The FAA was looking for a solution that would unload the burden from the FAA inspectors and the EAA was looking for a solution to get the inspections out of the hands of the FAA. The EAA contended that the original builder of the plane should possess sufficient knowledge to maintain the aircraft, was already performing the real maintenance and inspections, so should be licensed to endorse the logs. The FAA agreed. Now the only problem was what to do about the E-AB aircraft that had changed hands if the original builder was no longer available or willing to perform inspections. The EAA contended that any A&P should possess the equivalent or better level of knowledge about aircraft construction and maintenance as compared to an amateur aircraft builder and should be allowed to perform a periodic condition inspection on an E-AB aircraft. The FAA agreed. This rule change took effect in 1980 and has not had any significant changes since. You can thank Paul Poberezny for the system we currently have in place rather than a system where we would be paying contract DARs to do annual inspections, which, if unchecked, is where the FAA would have gone.

    -CubBuilder
    Last edited by cub builder; 11-27-2013 at 10:40 AM.

  7. #17
    FlyingRon's Avatar
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    The same thing as with everything else an A&P does. If he doesn't know, he needs to find out. I bet half the stuff you do you didn't learn in A&P school but rather from AC's, service bulletins, maintenance manuals, etc... For most homebuilts these days, who can do the inspection is spelled out right in the operating limitations (it's in the specimen ones the FAA inspectors have been using to issue the airworthiness certificates for decades.

  8. #18

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    CubBuilder: Great info on this. We must remember that in the EAB world we do not call these "Annual inspection" but " Condition Inspections". The A&P's I have spoke with were calling an EAB yearly inspection and Annual, it is not. It is done annually but they do not call it that.
    Another thing that really amazed me was when asking for this inspection to be done. All A&P's wanted to sign off my airplane as airworthy. Nothing about my airplane is airworthy. Because of this the liability on the A&P's part is less then with a General Aviation airplane. But because A&P's do not understand this they run from EAB's. They have a lot less at risk working on something that is never airworthy then on something that flies or is airworthy.

    Just say-in

    Tony
    Last edited by 1600vw; 11-27-2013 at 12:10 PM.

  9. #19
    FlyingRon's Avatar
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    Further the statement of "condition for safe operation" is even EXPLICITY STATED in the (sample) operating limitations. The A&P or holder of the repairman certificate doesn't need to look further for what determination and certification is necessary.

  10. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1600vw View Post
    CubBuilder: Great info on this. We must remember that in the EAB world we do not call these "Annual inspection" but " Condition Inspections". The A&P's I have spoke with were calling an EAB yearly inspection and Annual, it is not. It is done annually but they do not call it that.
    Another thing that really amazed me was when asking for this inspection to be done. All A&P's wanted to sign off my airplane as airworthy. Nothing about my airplane is airworthy. Because of this the liability on the A&P's part is less then with a General Aviation airplane. But because A&P's do not understand this they run from EAB's. They have a lot less at risk working on something that is never airworthy then on something that flies or is airworthy.

    Just say-in

    Tony
    Because of this, it is up to the owner of these EAB's to make sure those whom love him or would care if something happens to him while flying this EAB, understands that nothing on these airplanes are airworthy or signed off that way by the A&P.
    That its up to the owner and pilot to make sure that on every flight that airplane is " Good to Go". For its these folks whom will go after everyone if your airplane breaks in flight when in fact it was on the owner pilot.
    Now they might believe you are nuts for flying what you do, but only then do they understand, its on you and not some mechanic whom looks at your airplane once a year to sign logs. I went over this with everyone in my family whom might care if something was to happen. Its not a nice or pretty conversation but it must be done, if explained correctly they will love EAB's.

    Just Say-in

    Tony

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