Relax.. You should be golden..Originally Posted by hogheadv2
As long as you don't use latex paint, or run car gas...
Relax.. You should be golden..
As long as you don't use latex paint, or run car gas...
Last edited by I_FLY_LOW; 11-11-2013 at 11:17 AM.
All tape I have ever dealt with after time will fall apart. Leave it out in the sub zero and its even worse. Hangar conditions would ruin any tape I have seen.
More in-depth response than I had time for at 5:30am...
I guess I'll continue to be blunt; this is not a 'useful [aircraft] construction method'. Period. It will be both heavier and weaker than the riveted joint you are trying to 'improve'. Even at 0.025" thickness, the thinnest tape is going to make the riveted joint worse. Hogheadv2, once you tape the panels together, how will you deburr the holes after you drill them? The thickness of the tape creates a gap between the two sheets you are trying to join, which will cause the rivet to bulge between the sheets when driven, which is not acceptable because it further reduces the strength of the joint. Nothing is guaranteeing that the materials in your taped joint would allow the tape to load up to its rated strength before failing. There are FAR too many unknowns here to make this worth pursuing, not to mention the fact that it takes 10 minutes worth of calculations to determine that there is both an increase in weight and reduction in strength.
Riveted aluminum aircraft have existed for more than 75 years, and the method of construction understood better than any other aircraft construction method. If you find the need to worry about 'rivets getting loose' on a properly-designed aircraft, then your riveting skills need improvement. Experimentation is great, but there is no point to it when you end up with an inferior, heavier joint in the end. No need to take it personally, either. Take this as an opportunity to learn something and move on...
You forgot " or use a harley engine ".........
And please take into account that Matt isn't crapping on you; he's pointing out the weaknesses in using tape instead of rivets.
Caution and prudent risks are the watchwords of experimentation, particularly when one's life literally depends on making the right choices.
Heck, on my build I had to make a modification to fix some bad measurements so that the lower wing carry-throughs would fit. To say I did a poor job would be accurate - it wasn't the approach but the workmanship that had the potential for material failure down the road. The response from the group at the photographs was vehement on the fact that I had to remove the tubing, replace it, and make new gussets in the extreme.
It wasn't personal in the respect that they were critical of what I had done; it was extremely personal in that they didn't want to talk about me in the past tense.
That said, any part of an aircraft placed under routine stresses that a rivet would naturally become loose shouldn't be riveted in the first place; that's what they make bolts for!
The opinions and statements of this poster are largely based on facts and portray a possible version of the actual events.
Bonding aluminum aircraft structures, using any kind of glue, or any kind of double-sided tape, is definitely not something that you should be thinking about.
The ONLY examples of aluminum bonding on aircraft structures that have really worked, ever, are done in very complex machines owned by very large aerospace companies. No homebuilder can afford it, and nobody other than big aerospace can do this reliably and safely.
Small GA airplanes built in professional factories with special equipment have had a checkered result. The Grumman Yankee/Cheetah/Tiger are mostly OK using this method, but even they had well known problems and failures with glue, which have failed to some degree in several cases.
Homebuilt airplanes using bonded aluminum structure have a HORRIBLE record. The Monnett Moni and Monerai gliders have suffered more than one fatality because of bonding problems done by homebuilders. They manufacture only riveted airplanes now. The Schreder HP series of homebuilt sailplanes have had numerous failures but fortunately few or no fatalities because of this issue... but many of them have serious bonding problems.
The CriCri has had the fewest of the problems, but is still a risky proposition compared to riveting.
Now the aircraft bonding on all of the above was done with special aerospace epoxy adhesives, not a roll of any commercial carpet tape. The Hysol adhesive used in aerospace was tested to aerospace standards, and represents a known value.
To think that any industrial or "Home Depot" level tape product could be safe over time in aircraft construction is ludicrous. Remember the "Gorilla Glue" at Home Depot, where the package SAYS it is the world's strongest glue??? Airplane people did tests on it, and found that over time it loses a large part of its strength. So it might be fantastic the first few months or years, but then it gets weaker.
The double stick tape MAY be a fantastic adhesive... but it has to have independent field testing and data collection BEFORE you start using it as a structural bond!
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What about the bonding agent used in the sheetmetal on automobiles?
That stuff holds up to a LOT of constant abuse, every single day.
Hot or cold, rain or shine.
Even when wrecked, it still manages to hold together.
Do they make an aviation oriented version of that?
In my experience, adhesives used in structural automotive applications also use screws or rivets.
The adhesive bond is broken (during repairs) using a heat gun or propane torch (low temps).
The application of the expensive primer and adhesive repairs proper, and sometimes challenging, procedures.
I really don't think it would save construction time outside of an assembly line and it certainly would not be more economical, weight savings if any is marginal.
The Schreder HP-18 was a popular all metal homebuilt glider that had bonded wing skins...
Glues CAN work for certain things.
Example: I attached my gear-to-fuselage fairings to my RV-8A with RTV. No screws, no rivets.
Of course, that's a nonstructural, 6-ounce, aerodynamic fairing -- not a wing skin.
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