Fair unknowns

[WLIU]

"A good number of members have been great. But I have also run into the ones talk down to me....."

Well, you run into this in any sport. I have competed in fencing, skydiving, and aerobatics. I hang out with the "good" guys and ignore the jerks.

My experience is that there are a LOT of accomplished competitors who will answer questions and offer encouragement. My personal list of pilots who have offered advice and encouragement include Mike Goulian (Unlimited National Champion), Rob Holland (Unlimited National Champion), John Morrissey (US Team Trainer and coach, IAC Advanced National Champion), Nikolai Timofeev (coach and unlimited competitor), Linda-Meyers Morrissey (unlimited competitor), Dennis Sawyer (IAC Advanced National Champion) just to start the list. All I did was ask politely and listen and I received a huge amount of help. All for free. I hope that my flying reflects the good advice that I have been given.

So ignore the jerks and hang out with the good guys.

And if you have not gone to an IAC Judges School, do so. You can't post a good score unless you know how and why the judges are grading your figures. And then find an IAC chapter and go to practice days. Leo Loudenslager famously said that if you are not getting critiqued you are just burning gas and having fun. And if your local IAC chapter isn't organizing acro practice days, do it yourself. I did. So now I have my own FAA waivered box and I can fly acro at contest altitudes with a critiquer any weekend I want to. Oh course since I made that stuff happen they made me be an IAC chapter president for 5 1/2 years, but that is another story.

Best of luck,

Wes
N78PS

[RetroAcro]

Now who is jumping to conclusions? You know nothing about my professional life, what I do 8ish hours a day for 20+ years.

I was only basing my conclusion on your statement, "Being new, I don't know a lot".

But since you know so much more than me, when was the last time a 7ECA placed in Sportsman at the nationals? When was the last time a 7ECA won primary at the nationals? You claim I have not done my research, provide your data.

I'm still unclear what your major gripe is. Do you take issue with the fact that you once heard that Sportsman sequences should be flyable in a 7ECA, even though it's unlikely a 7ECA will actually win? Did you buy a 7ECA specifically for competition purposes after reading this? Were you disappointed later to find out that aircraft without inverted systems will have trouble competing with aircraft with inverted systems? Nobody has ever said, or will say that a 7ECA has a good chance of winning in Sportsman, at Nationals or otherwise...only that it must be "flyable".

If you feel the major problem with IAC is that the competition structure does not make it easy for stock J-3 Cubs, 7ECA's, and Stearman type aircraft, I would propose this. Out of all 899 7ECA's in the registry, see how many you can convince to come to a contest in any particular region. I'd be happy to run a one-day "one design" contest for non-inverted system Citabria pilots. Other chapters may as well. Ten pilots would make it worthwhile. I truly don't believe there are significant numbers of Citabria pilots out there waiting on IAC to make it easier for them before showing genuine interest and commitment to the sport. Again, out of all the inverted-system 7KCAB pilots in the country, you can count on one hand the number of these folks across the country who are involved. And they have an airplane that can definitely compete with any other airplane (and win) Primary or Sportsman. You can find them in the contest results. They are not being held back. I would love to be proven wrong on this point. I would love to have a coalition of Citabria pilots contact me saying a bunch of them would like to come to a contest, "one design" with a custom sequence or otherwise. I would put in effort to accommodate them.

A good number of members have been great. But I have also run into the ones talk down to me...But it when the image projected is that to have a chance you have to buy a plane you don't have..... The sport will not grow. You will not get the 8k RV's to give it a try. If you keep saying you don't care about the guy that has to decide between golf and aerobatics.... Then you just push the golfer away showing you don't care.

As Wes suggested, you'll run into a small percentage of jerks no matter what activity you get into. That's life. Aviation/aerobatics is no different. You can't let them hold you back.

[WeaverJ3Cub]

Being new I don't know a lot. But one example is not letting unlimited aircraft in Primary. Another might not be allowing a guy that competed at a World meet to compete in a lower class. You don't see Michael Jordan being allowed to play High School ball. Another might be giving classes of aircraft standards.... You can't expect a 7ECA to do a perfect roll, so don't expect perfect - Expect perfect for an ECA.

I'm totally out of my depth entering into this conversation given that I have never competed, but that comment just irritates me. Giles Henderson whips the Sportsman category in a clipped wing J-3 Cub. I personally saw a guy (who shall remain nameless) completely flunk that same category flying an Extra 300. It was amazingly bad. Like everyone has said...it is the pilot, NOT the plane. Sure, it is easier in an Extra, but it is possible in an ECA.

And on your comment on the ECA not doing a perfect roll...I'm not sure that's true. I know my instructor can do a mighty good slow roll in a 7KCAB, if that means anything. Any comments from the experts?

EDIT: Some examples: http://www.usnationalaerobatics.org/...?ContestID=430

[ssmdive]

I'm totally out of my depth entering into this conversation given that I have never competed, , but that comment just irritates me.

Then may I suggest you enter a competition so you will have experience to form an educated opinion? It makes little sense to get irritated about a subject you admit to have no experience with.

Giles Henderson whips the Sportsman category in a clipped wing J-3 Cub.

And Dale Earnhart Jr. would most likely beat the majority of drivers in any car. Bob Hoover can 8 point roll a commuter twin, Tex Johnson rolled a 707, and Patty Wagstaff can loop a Cessna better than I can loop a Pitts. Using the cream of the crop to justify your opinion is a distraction from the topic.... They are not the target for sportsman sequences.

it is the pilot, NOT the plane. Sure, it is easier in an Extra, but it is possible in an ECA.

If it is possible, then please provide the dates that an ECA has medaled at the nationals... I mean if it is possible, then surely it has been done a few times? That is the proof it is possible, not just giving an opinion.

And on your comment on the ECA not doing a perfect roll...I'm not sure that's true. I know my instructor can do a mighty good slow roll in a 7KCAB, if that means anything. Any comments from the experts?

And was this roll in front of a panel of judges, or just your opinion? Did you observe the roll from the ground or in the plane? Because I thought I was doing pretty good rolls till I flew in front of a coach for the first time. Then I was told I was doing them all wrong. My wife ridding in back thought they were perfect when I did them with her as well - The judges did not agree with me or her.

Also, a 7KCAB has an additional 40-70 HP and more importantly has inverted fuel and oil systems. Have you ever flown a plane without inverted systems while inverted? My ECA takes about 6 seconds to do a 'gentleman's ' roll - one where you stay slightly positive and have an arc. Well, that is nowhere close to a good competition roll. In a competition roll you have to maintain altitude through the roll. This requires top rudder, inverted push on the elevator (when the engine will die), and then top rudder again. Takes about 7 seconds and the engine is dead for two seconds. It is quite difficult to maintain altitude with a dead engine and a flat bottom wing while keeping speed to keep a constant roll rate.

Have YOU ever flown a flat bottom winged, non-inverted system airplane while inverted? If not, then I respectively submit that you do not have the experience to make an educated judgement about how possible it is, much less be 'irritated' at someone's opinion who HAS done it.

But again, you keep claiming it is possible.... So let's discount your opinion and my opinion and again I will ask....

If it is possible, then surely it has been done before. So please, provide the data that shows a 7ECA has placed in sportsman at the Nationals.

edit: To your example.

1. It is not a nationals. It is a chapter meet.
2. The plane in primary is a casutt racer, not an ECA.
3. The plane in Sportsman is an 8KCAB (Super D). Inverted fuel and oil, symmetrical wing, faster roll rate, 70 more HP.

I have flown both a 7ECA and 8KCAB. Have you? The 8KCAB is a much more capable plane even in my hands.

[WeaverJ3Cub]

Woah, woah, woah...hold on there.

I'm not pretending to be someone I'm not. I have flown basic aerobatics and I have worked the judges line at competition. I don't have to be Rob Holland to be able to be irritated or say that you're wrong.

And Dale Earnhart Jr. would most likely beat the majority of drivers in any car. Bob Hoover can 8 point roll a commuter twin, Tex Johnson rolled a 707, and Patty Wagstaff can loop a Cessna better than I can loop a Pitts. Using the cream of the crop to justify your opinion is a distraction from the topic.... They are not the target for sportsman sequences.

Then...you prove everyone's point. It's the pilot not the plane.

From all this it sounds like you're basically upset that someone can't show up with minimal practice and ability and medal in a 37hp J-2 Cub (yes, some exaggeration). As others have said, there's no way that you can make every category winnable by every airplane. Plus, you're talking about Nationals for Pete's sake. That's where the best pilots and planes go to compete, so of course you'd wouldn't stand a chance in an ECA.

This guy has notes on different Primary/Sportsman figures in an ECA. He deals specifically with the roll and says you can expect a score of 7.5 at best, then you exceed the airplane's capability.

http://www.patspencer.ca/aerobaticsc...ourse_2009.pdf

I'm still having trouble understanding your gripe, and you don't seem to want any solutions.

EDIT: I think it's also worth mentioning (someone please correct me if I'm wrong) that the 7ECA was not designed for competition acro per se but more stuff like "barnstorming style" aerobatics and upset training. Planes designed from the bottom up to compete are, well, designed differently.

[ssmdive]

Woah, woah, woah...hold on there.

I'm not pretending to be someone I'm not. I have flown basic aerobatics and I have worked the judges line at competition. I don't have to be Rob Holland to be able to be irritated or say that you're wrong.

You should have some basic experience about the topic to claim that someone who has experience is 'wrong'... Which in this case is the sportsman sequence in a non inverted system plane. Again I ask, have you flown a flat wing non-inverted system airplane and tried to do a competition roll?

Plus you claimed, "Giles Henderson whips the Sportsman category in a clipped wing J-3 Cub." Yet the data you provided had him flying a plane other than a cub. So either your data set was wrong, or you were wrong.

Then...you prove everyone's point. It's the pilot not the plane

You skipped the point that sportsman is not designed for Rob Holland to fly. You also skipped the point that there are very few pilots who are at, or will ever be, at a famous test pilot's skill level. Using a top notch pilot as an example is a distraction.... Again I ask for PROOF and not opinion.

Please show me a 7ECA medaling at the nationals. You keep saying it is possible, but if it really IS possible, then it should of been done sometime since the aircraft's inception and today. Like I said, put the data up to back your opinion.

From all this it sounds like you're basically upset that someone can't show up with minimal practice and ability and medal in a 37hp J-2 Cub (yes, some exaggeration).

Nope, that is what you want to read into it. My comment is that all those who keep claiming that the ECA can do well should offer more than opinion and provide some data. People keep saying that the ECA can compete in Sportsman, "its the pilot, not the plane".... Great, provide the FACTS to back that up.

Also your claim of me wanting minimal practice is garbage - A flat out lie. My point is the plane itself is an issue for the AVERAGE non-Patty Wagstaff pilot. I recognize my limitations.... I am not one of the worlds best pilots.

You keep adding things that were not part of the original position.... A tactic used by people without data to fall back on.

1. This is not about the top of the top pilots. This is about the Average. If the IAC only cares about the best of the best then they should drop every class other than the ones that will compete at the world championships. This is the attitude I have been running across.

2. You tried to claim I want some yokel with no training to have a chance. This is something you just flat out made up. I simply said that the IAC sportsman sequence is not practical in an ECA... You claimed I was 'wrong'. I asked you to provide your proof and as of yet, you have failed to provide anything but re stating your opinion over and over. Further you have made claims that have been proven, so far, to be wrong "Giles Henderson whips the Sportsman category in a clipped wing J-3 Cub." The data you provided showed him winning in a Cassutt Racer, not a Cub and in PRIMARY, not Sportsman.

A 7ECA has a chance in Primary, I have placed second overall in a competition in *primary* in my ECA. This is not the topic of discussion.

As others have said, there's no way that you can make every category winnable by every airplane.

Then be honest about it and don't claim it can be done. "It's the pilot, not the plane".... sound familiar? You have said it several times this thread.

Plus, you're talking about Nationals for Pete's sake. That's where the best pilots and planes go to compete, so of course you'd wouldn't stand a chance in an ECA.

Then quit claiming it is fine for the class. Yes, if no one shows up at a local meet then a guy in a 38hp cub can win.... But quit spreading the lie that he has a chance when others show up to play.... OR provide your data to back up your opinion. So far you have been unable to do that, and I think that trend will continue.

This guy has notes on different Primary/Sportsman figures in an ECA. He deals specifically with the roll and says you can expect a score of 7.5 at best, then you exceed the airplane's capability.

Well then I have already done that. Again, I ask YOU have you flown a flat winged non inverted system plane in a competition style roll... If so, then please let us know.

I'm still having trouble understanding your gripe, and you don't seem to want any solutions.

Then you either have not read a thing I have written, or you choose not to understand.

Simply put, if the plane does not have a chance, quit lying and saying it does have a chance. Be honest.

DIT: I think it's also worth mentioning (someone please correct me if I'm wrong) that the 7ECA was not designed for competition acro per se but more stuff like "barnstorming style" aerobatics and upset training. Planes designed from the bottom up to compete are, well, designed differently.

Then QUIT TELLING PEOPLE THAT THE PILOT IS ALL THAT MATTERS! Be honest and admit that the plane has no chance in Sportsman instead of trying to sell the line that the person who does not agree must not train enough or quit trying to say the since maybe the best pilots in the world might be able to do it that I have no real gripe.

Not a difficult concept.... Quit saying the pilot is all that matters when you know that is not the truth. Admit that some sequences are designed to favor some planes and basically eliminate others.

Edit to add: I am sure you will not provide the data. Further I am sure you will just continue to spout your opinion without providing evidence, or worse continue to provide data that does not support your position - IE: it was a Cassutt, not a cub. Primary, not Sportsman.

Details matter, facts matter.

[WLIU]

When I talk to a pilot about competition, I explain that this sport is a multi-dimensional challenge. The flying is only the last part of the competition. You have to qualify in multiple ways.

First you have to organize the $$ for the airplane, practice gas, critiquing and coaching, and travel away from home base to these and the contests. If you can't medal at this stage you don't move on.

Then you have to organize an airplane that will allow you to compete at the level that you think you can. This can be done in multiple steps as your competition skills increase. Some folks figure this stage out, some do not, some choose particular airplanes because they want to add another dimension of challenge. You have to medal this activity to achieve success at the contest.

You have to organize the time and motivation to build and hone your competition flying skills. If you can not medal at motivation and persistence, you can't medal at a contest. Every champion I know has gold medals in this category.

And when you finally get to an actual contest, you have to organize the convergence of skill, focus, $$, the airplane, and a little luck, to medal in the contest flights and earn a trophy.

If you are in it for the trophies, you can fall short at any one of, or a combination of, the $$, the airplane, the time commitment, the practice, persistence, motivation, or luck, and you never make it to a contest or you fly home from the contest with nothing but an empty wallet and maybe a contest shirt. It is very easy to get frustrated.

Competition is hard. Not for everyone. Not sure what character defect keeps some of us coming back. I know guys who spend $400K on and airplane and $30K a year on maintenance, gas, coaching, hotels, etc., all in pursuit of a $20 trophy. Go figure.

So for anyone who wants the aeronautical challenge of competition aerobatics, the first step is to organize your life and career to make the $$ and time to find the airplane and training that will get you into competition. And picking an airplane that is right for you is part of that first challenge.

Best of luck,

Wes
N78PS - 34 contests and counting

[cyav8r]

Plus you claimed, "Giles Henderson whips the Sportsman category in a clipped wing J-3 Cub." Yet the data you provided had him flying a plane other than a cub. So either your data set was wrong, or you were wrong.

Giles Henderson won Sportsman at the 1971 and 1975 US Nationals and also won Sportsman at the IAC Championships (Championships of the America's) in 1983, 1986, 1987, and placed top three in many other years and flights there over the years while flying his J-3. Research the the IAC Championship, it was just as big a deal, or bigger than the current US Nationals since it was open to foreign pilots to win. Another thing to consider about contests from that period, many had 30 to 50+ Sportsman pilots compared with barely 20 in Sportsman at the current US Nationals. Its the pilot, not the mount he's flying.

You skipped the point that sportsman is not designed for Rob Holland to fly.

Pilots can choose any category based on what fits their individual skill, airplane, desires, pocketbook, etc. Sportsman is for anyone to fly and have fun with. It would be great to see Rob in Sportsman this year in Sherman...and he might beat me. If so, oh well, he was better that week. I'll be back next year. Pilots move up/down in category all the time for all sorts of reasons.

Sport Aerobatics is about having fun and hanging out with friends you meet over the years. Given that perspective the 7ECA is a perfect airplane for contests because its WAY cheaper to operate than the thirsty 300+hp motors.

If all you are looking for is medals and trophies, you be disappointed many more times than not no matter what aircraft you are flying.

[RetroAcro]

Those who are new to competition often fixate on the "competition" aspect and how well (or badly) they think they might do. Most experienced folks see "competition" as an opportunity to hang out with their acro flying buddies. What you get out of it depends on your attitude, not the airplane you're flying. And pilots like Giles Henderson and even cyav8r here do extremely well in "lower performing" airplanes for a reason. They work at it, make the effort. They practice. They have flown their respective airplanes for a long time. They get coaching and critiquing. They have developed good solid basic aerobatic skills, and got help from the ground. Having a high-performance airplane does not make up for lack of dedication and hard-earned skill. Pilots who do well in unusually lower-performing airplanes are not necessarily special when it comes to natural talent. They simply stuck with their airplane and learned how to fly it well.

I suspect this sport may not be for you if you are so consumed and annoyed with the fact that it's hard for a 7ECA to quite compete at the same level as similarly-skilled pilots flying Pitts' and Extras in Sportsman. If you put in some real effort and developed some good skill in your airplane, you'd get a lot of respect from other pilots for potentially doing so well with a 7ECA. Most airplanes are a lot more capable than pilots who are new to flying them. Try designing a Sportsman Free sequence that better suits your airplane. And seriously - I'd be happy to run a one-design contest for all the hopelessly disenchanted-with-IAC 7ECA pilots out there...if there are any others.

[ssmdive]

Its the pilot, not the mount he's flying.

Pilots can choose any category based on what fits their individual skill, airplane, desires, pocketbook, etc. Sportsman is for anyone to fly and have fun with. It would be great to see Rob in Sportsman this year in Sherman...and he might beat me. If so, oh well, he was better that week. I'll be back next year. Pilots move up/down in category all the time for all sorts of reasons.

Sport Aerobatics is about having fun and hanging out with friends you meet over the years. Given that perspective the 7ECA is a perfect airplane for contests because its WAY cheaper to operate than the thirsty 300+hp motors.

If all you are looking for is medals and trophies, you be disappointed many more times than not no matter what aircraft you are flying.

I have made you this offer before and you never replied... So I'll do it again.

Come down to Sebring and I'll give you my ECA to compete in sportsman (provided you meet the open pilots requirements - which you clearly should). If you win, you will prove your point and shut me up.

You game? You can't really lose, I mean you get to come down an compete and have fun... Tell ya what, I'll even pay your entry fee.