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Thread: Fair unknowns

  1. #1

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    Fair unknowns

    Oct 22 at 4:27 PM
    This is an e-mail that I've sent to the magazine . I thought it goes hand in hand with the Civa Knowns that are being looked at on another thread .
    My hope is that the following will be posted in the magazine .

    With apologies to the membership, I would like to reexamine an old issue that has been beat to death amongst the members, but I believe still deserves some attention to keep the competition as fair as we possibly can for all concerned!

    I'm referring to the horsepower & airframe advantages that some have over others in the higher categories. With an understanding that there is no way to completely eliminate the disparity, I still believe there's a lot that can be done at the contest level to even the playing field!

    First off let me explain the disparity as I see it. I fly the advanced category in a small winged stock 180 HP "One Design". The little bird probably has a slight airframe advantage over a pitts but is considerably heavier at 950 lbs.

    Now us heavy 1D & pitts guys, we don't like to complain but when you get to a contest on a "HOT DAY" after having practiced the CIVA influenced known & figuring how to minimize the advantages that are obviously going to be slanted to the big 6 cyl.s, as well as to the larger wing areas.

    We do well in the known & free only to get thrown an unknown that no reasonable person would argue is a fair fight between pilots. Due to the advantages of airframe & HP flying a sequence that is an energy eater especially
    in the last few figures of the sequence!

    Some will say ...Oh you can get thru that in a stock pitts or 1D and I'm sure that's probably true...but what is also true is that you can get thru it much easier in a higher HP monowing or even a 6 cyl biplane than in the little 4 bangers!

    Whats discouraging for me is to be well positioned after 2 flights to take the overall & then get to the unknown & know that I'll have to extract every last once of performance out of my little mount just to keep from having a low called!

    Then I get to watch the 6 cyl. guys buzz thru with no altitude issues at all knowing that he's not having to work nearly as hard to get thru the sequence as I am. Please don't think I fault the other pilots, I've considered buying a more capable plane myself just to keep up! So you ask ....well what would be your suggestion for evening the playing field at the regional level to fix this?

    I'm glad you asked and here it is...get all the altitude eating figures at the beginning of the sequence. Make it as difficult as you like in the first 1/2 to 2/3's of the sequence then stop with the "energy/altitude eaters"! It almost seems as though the organizers purposely are thinking to themselves ...."hey these little 4 bangers are really going to be sweating altitude by about the last 1/4 of the flight" lets see how they do.

    Now that would be ok if everybody were at least close in airframe & HP performance .....But" My GOSH GUYS" ..Do you really think it's fair to the guy who's practiced his heart out to get past the already "Biased CIVA known" to throw him an equally "Biased CIVA Unknown"? No doubt we might get thru it but would anybody really try & make the argument that it's a fair fight for the little guy?

    I truly don't expect the IAC leadership to change their direction on this issue. My plea is not to the leadership for this argument is as old almost as the organization itself. (Go back & read Frank Christiensens and others exchange with Mike Heuer in the December 1987 issue of sport aerobatics)!

    Oh well there's my case ...It's an old argument that's been made many times before by a lot better & smarter pilots than me thru the years . As I said my appeal is to the organizers at the contests for I believe the IAC is like a lot of the Washington crowd .....they must live in a bubble ...because for all the claims of wanting to keep the "Grassroots & Little Guy" in the loop we've continued down the same path to where we are now !

    In closing and to the last point about the path we're on, when I left the sport in 02 there were at least a recognition of this disparity by there being rules as to what was AWAC legal & what was not. I won't try & recall them all here but at least there were attempts at making it more fair......I returned to the sport the beginning of 2012 & found all rules were gone.

    I was lucky enough to jump back in at my first 3 contests & be flying against not only more difficult figures than were allowed when I left (outside rollers) ....but now I'm competing against a Past "World Aerobatic Champion" flying the same plane he won the WAC in.....As well as a lot more unlimited capable planes!

    No sour grapes here. I know the reason the past champ was back in advanced. I bring it up only because it illustrates the point well. I appreciate his attempts to help the team. I enjoyed the challenge & it made me a better pilot as well as it was all the AWAC team trying to get ready to go to the championships across the seas & get schooled on CIVA Rules & judging .

    So all you guys out there putting on the contests ...Please remember us little guys & if you don't agree with my assessment ....Lets at least acknowledge the "Elephant in the room" and quit acting as if he's not there, because his old stinky behind is usually in the little guys face & just like the disparity in flying these unknowns...it really stinks!



    Sincerely

    Tony Zorn
    IAC#24372










  2. #2

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    Hello Tony,

    I suggest that sending the note to the magazine is a round-a-bout way to get to the committee that writes the unknowns. I suggest that you send your note directly to Brian Howard, Chair of the IAC Rules Committee. Brian's e-mail address is in the back of the magazine. Brian has always been very responsive when asked questions.

    That said, Brian pleads every year, through the Acro Exploder, for members to send him candidate Unknown Programs. IAC never intended that a small committee generate all of the Unknown Programs every year. Submission by members, using the list of allowable figures in the back of the rule book, is encouraged. So please take a look at Appendix 3 and sketch a flight program up using your favorite drawing tool. Get all of your friends to draw up candidates also. And my understanding is that Unknown Programs are intended to strain the pilot's brain more than the aircraft structure. Figures that involve vertical lines in the middle of the box with figure exits on a different axis than the entry axis are encouraged to give pilots and opportunity to make a mental error and go the wrong way, thus accumulating zeroes.

    Hope to see you at the box next season.

    Wes
    N78PS

  3. #3

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    I'd echo Wes' comment. Flying a stock S-2B I've definitely had the feeling I'm having to work harder than I would in a monster monoplane but against that

    - I'm still very much the limiting factor on my own scores (that's just me - your mileage may vary)

    - the Unknowns come from a pool maintained by Brian, who indeed has to beg for submissions, and I know of at least one very experienced Pitts pilot who submits Unknowns that will twist your brain into knots without coming close to the limits of a lower powered airplane.

    I actually asked Brian directly about this after my very first ever (Intermediate) Unknown which started with a figure that would have been extremely challenging in a grassroots airplane. I was just interested in how the process works. He sent quite a lengthy and thoughtful response which fundamentally boiled down to the fact that he applies common sense judgement to submitted sequences, based on his own knowledge and experience and noting that he does regularly drop submissions that are only flyable by Edges, and that the best thing we can do is submit our own brain-twisters to improve the pool of sequences he has to draw on.

    With the latest online drawing tools it's actually very easy to put together and modify sequences so I'd recommend giving it a shot. I plan to do the same.

    -Martin

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    Thanks for the information on who to contact guys I will make sure to make some offers of my own for next year .

  5. #5

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    I honestly think the IAC does not care.
    Sure people will claim I am wrong, but the fact is the IAC claims a 7ECA can 'do' sportsman. OK, sure it might be able to 'do' it. But it has zero chance in getting good scores. Everyone I talked to told me that to even do sportsman I was going to have to take my little ECA right up to redline on both speed and RPM. I am just not willing to do that... Not willing to trash a nice plane to chase after a 3.99 medal. Yet a guy who can afford it, can show up in an MX or Extra and compete in Primary.

    The day I showed up at my first competition in a ECA and was competing against 4 guys in Pitts specials... Well, that showed me that it is an arms race just as much as the ability to fly. It has been made perfectly clear by many people that each and every class you move to has airplanes that can just barely do the maneuvers and the only option is to buy a better plane or accept you will get your ass kicked and fight your best.

    I get competition, selecting the team to compete at the World level for the Country. But the majority of people who would like to fly some competitions have zero interest/ability in going that far.

    The sad thing is I think there are only 2500 dues paying members of the IAC. An organization that small should be able to make changes - If they wanted to make changes. I can tell you that the next competition in my area.... I already have plans to be somewhere else on those days.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by ssmdive View Post
    I honestly think the IAC does not care.
    Sure people will claim I am wrong, but the fact is the IAC claims a 7ECA can 'do' sportsman. OK, sure it might be able to 'do' it. But it has zero chance in getting good scores. Everyone I talked to told me that to even do sportsman I was going to have to take my little ECA right up to redline on both speed and RPM. I am just not willing to do that... Not willing to trash a nice plane to chase after a 3.99 medal. Yet a guy who can afford it, can show up in an MX or Extra and compete in Primary.
    You must realize that as a 7ECA owner with an interest in competing IN THIS AIRPLANE, you are an extreme minority. Even among 7KCAB (inverted systems) owners, something like 5 out of 250 registered airplanes are involved in competition. I looked it up once. A 7KCAB can win (and has won) at the Sportsman level. These "benchmark" airplanes for each category are intended to simply be able to fly the sequence. This is different from the liklihood of getting 10's on each figure. The Known sequences from the past 20 years are posted on the IAC site. If you take a look, you'll see that Sportsman has changed very little, if any. It has (and still does) consist of very basic figures. What changes to the average Sportsman sequence would you propose so that your 7ECA would be as competitive as a Pitts or Extra? Unless we somehow relax the judging criteria to allow for egg-shaped loops and positive G barrel rolls, I can't think of much you could do.

    Quote Originally Posted by ssmdive View Post
    The day I showed up at my first competition in a ECA and was competing against 4 guys in Pitts specials... Well, that showed me that it is an arms race just as much as the ability to fly. It has been made perfectly clear by many people that each and every class you move to has airplanes that can just barely do the maneuvers and the only option is to buy a better plane or accept you will get your ass kicked and fight your best.
    You can buy some Pitts S-1's cheaper than a 7ECA. People with serious aerobatic interest just tend not to fly 7ECA's as their primary acro plane (for long). Yes, every category has performance requirements. You won't see a Stearman in Advanced or Unlimited. That's the whole point of the category structure.

    Quote Originally Posted by ssmdive View Post
    I get competition, selecting the team to compete at the World level for the Country. But the majority of people who would like to fly some competitions have zero interest/ability in going that far.

    The sad thing is I think there are only 2500 dues paying members of the IAC. An organization that small should be able to make changes - If they wanted to make changes. I can tell you that the next competition in my area.... I already have plans to be somewhere else on those days.
    There are about 3000, not that this is a huge number. You have expressed your gripes that it's hard for your particular airplane to be as competitive as all the other aircraft types typically found at contests. But you have not articulated exactly what you expect to "change", or how you'd propose changing it.

    I guarantee you that the viability of IAC does not hinge on its ability to make J-3 Cubs, Stearmans, and 7ECA's highly competitive mounts. Look at the RV population. About 8,000 airplanes out there that are perfectly able to win at the Sportsman level, and about 3 per year compete. People who really have enough interest in competing will do it. Those who wish for it to be made convenient for them and their particular airplane should they, on the offchance, feel like coming to a contest rather than playing golf again some weekend are not the ones that will sustain IAC.

    In Advanced my little Pitts S-1S struggles at times, and is not as competitive as an MX, but I still have fun doing it. And in Primary and Sportsman, a 7KCAB Citabria can beat an Extra. The airplane does not do it for you. Lots of people seem to think that high performance planes make it so easy. Competition is about accuracy of vertical and 45 lines, roundness of looping sections, rolling without deviating from a flight path, equal length lines with rolls, stopping spins on heading, staying on heading, staying in the box, presenting your flight well, among many other things in the higher categories. These are mostly pilot factors, not aircraft factors.
    Last edited by RetroAcro; 04-14-2014 at 04:09 PM.

  7. #7

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    What changes to the average Sportsman sequence would you propose so that your 7ECA would be as competitive as a Pitts or Extra?
    Maybe the key is to not allow an Extra in Primary. You do not have Indy cars at NASCAR races. I am not claiming to know the answers... Just telling you that it is pretty clear from my very limited experience that a good number of IAC'ers think the answer to a guy like me is "buy a new plane or go away, if you want it you will do it".

    Even if that is not the 'official' stance.... The fact that the impression is felt is enough to justify me making the claim.

    You can buy some Pitts S-1's cheaper than a 7ECA.
    And people with zero tailwheel time are not advised to buy an S1S as their first TW plane. It *can* be done, but like the 7ECA in Sportsman it is not a great idea.

    But you have not articulated exactly what you expect to "change", or how you'd propose changing it.
    Being new I don't know a lot. But one example is not letting unlimited aircraft in Primary. Another might not be allowing a guy that competed at a World meet to compete in a lower class. You don't see Michael Jordan being allowed to play High School ball. Another might be giving classes of aircraft standards.... You can't expect a 7ECA to do a perfect roll, so don't expect perfect - Expect perfect for an ECA.

    I guarantee you that the viability of IAC does not hinge on its ability to make J-3 Cubs, Stearmans, and 7ECA's highly competitive mounts. Look at the RV population.
    The IAC should be concerned with its viability. 3000 people out of a population of 330M is not statistically significant. If there is a single accident bad enough to start a ground swell against aerobatics, 3000 people will not even be a speed bump to slow down laws limiting the ability to fly acro.

    About 8,000 airplanes out there that are perfectly able to win at the Sportsman level, and about 3 per year compete. People who really have enough interest in competing will do it
    And there is the "buy a better plane".

    Those who wish for it to be made convenient for them and their particular airplane should they, on the offchance, feel like coming to a contest rather than playing golf again some weekend are not the ones that will sustain IAC.
    And there is the 'go away'. I submit that you need to get those people off the golf course at least once to get them to try aerobatics.... The fact that even the 'known' programs are password protected on the IAC site tells me that the IAC does not care that much about trying to pull people in.

    And in Primary and Sportsman, a 7KCAB Citabria can beat an Extra
    Planes are not equal. It maybe CAN be done, but that would be like saying a guy with a noodle might win a knife fight - I mean it could happen. Statistically the chances are insignificant.

    These are mostly pilot factors, not aircraft factors.
    I've flown an Extra. I'd easily kick my own ass in my ECA in sportsman if I had an Extra. The pilot being equal, the better plane will win - This is not something that should really be in dispute. That the sequences are designed in a way that favors certain types should not be in much dispute either.

    No, I don't know the answers. I can only tell you that the prevalent attitude I have gotten is "buy a better plane, or go away". Some times I wonder why I even voice my opinion on the topic since I know the answer I will get.
    Last edited by ssmdive; 04-14-2014 at 04:54 PM.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by ssmdive View Post
    Maybe the key is to not allow an Extra in Primary. You do not have Indy cars at NASCAR races. I am not claiming to know the answers... Just telling you that it is pretty clear from my very limited experience that a good number of IAC'ers think the answer to a guy like me is "buy a new plane or go away, if you want it you will do it".

    Even if that is not the 'official' stance.... The fact that the impression is felt is enough to justify me making the claim.
    I must be blunt - you are making a lot of judgments and jumping to many conclusions based on very little experience. If you want to prohibit Extras in Primary, you might as well prohibit Decathlons. I imagine you're still not convinced of what I wrote above about high-performance airplanes not doing it for you, but an Extra really has no advantage over a Decathlon in Primary and Sportsman. I promise you a pilot who does not have the skill do do well in Primary or Sportsman in a Decathlon will not do any better in an Extra.

    And nobody will ever tell you, or want you to "go away". We enjoy seeing different, lower-performing airplanes at contests. It's a break from watching all the Pitts' and Extras. I've seen Stearmans, Clipped Cubs, and Clipped T-Crafts at contests - all with no inverted systems. They actually did decent and had lots of fun. You may think it takes heroic skill to fly a low-performance, non-inverted system airplane well in competition. It doesn't. It takes fundamental aerobatic skills. If you have good fundamental aerobatic skills, it doesn't matter what airplane you're flying, as long as the airplane has the initial capability. Nobody will expect a Lancair to do well at a STOL contest, and the best aerobatic pilot in the world will not get a Curtis Jenny to score well even in Primary. Airplanes are on a continuum. Your 7ECA is just one airplane on that continuum of performance.

    Quote Originally Posted by ssmdive View Post
    And people with zero tailwheel time are not advised to buy an S1S as their first TW plane. It *can* be done, but like the 7ECA in Sportsman it is not a great idea.
    It's just an airplane. It just takes proper training and diligence. I have a few friends who bought a Pitts with zero tailwheel time. Took them about 20 hrs to get competent, but it can be done.

    Quote Originally Posted by ssmdive View Post
    Being new I don't know a lot. But one example is not letting unlimited aircraft in Primary. Another might not be allowing a guy that competed at a World meet to compete in a lower class. You don't see Michael Jordan being allowed to play High School ball. Another might be giving classes of aircraft standards.... You can't expect a 7ECA to do a perfect roll, so don't expect perfect - Expect perfect for an ECA.
    The first half of what you describe just doesn't happen. And even if it did, this is totally unrelated to your perceived gripe about IAC. And regarding allowing "leeway" for lower-performing airplanes, this is a slippery slope to the complete elimination of any judging criteria whatsoever.

    Quote Originally Posted by ssmdive View Post
    The IAC should be concerned with its viability....And there is the 'go away'. I submit that you need to get those people off the golf course at least once to get them to try aerobatics.... The fact that even the 'known' programs are password protected on the IAC site tells me that the IAC does not care that much about trying to pull people in.
    Believe me, IAC is concerned about its own future. The general pilot population is diminishing. So has IAC. Have you ever been to an EAA meeting? It's 95% gray hairs...not that I mean that in a derogatory fashion. It's the economics of it all. It's about people being exposed to, and developing serious aerobatic interest. There are many difficult problems. IAC cannot wave a magic want and start fixing these problems. I've love to see more Stearmans, 7ECA's, and Clipped Cubs at contests, but I firmly believe that making drastic changes to get a handful of these pilots to show up to a contest, when they would not have otherwise, is not the answer. I guarantee you we are truly talking just a handful of pilots. There really are not many folks like you with 7ECA's hinging their involvement with competition acro on IAC making it easier for them. Pilots of these airplanes in general just aren't interested in this. It's not that IAC tells these pilots to "go away", it's that these pilots just don't really care in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by ssmdive View Post
    Planes are not equal. It maybe CAN be done, but that would be like saying a guy with a noodle might win a knife fight - I mean it could happen. Statistically the chances are insignificant.
    How could you know anything about the statistical likelihood of a pilot with some basic competence in a 7KCAB scoring higher than a pilot in an Extra in Primary when you admit you don't know much and have very little experience with this stuff? If you spent some time perusing the contests results, you might see some interesting things.

    Quote Originally Posted by ssmdive View Post
    I've flown an Extra. I'd easily kick my own ass in my ECA in sportsman if I had an Extra. The pilot being equal, the better plane will win - This is not something that should really be in dispute. That the sequences are designed in a way that favors certain types should not be in much dispute either.
    You are right in that the sequences are designed to favor certain types of airplanes - those with inverted systems. If you do not have inverted systems, you are handicapped in low powered, slow rolling airplanes. I don't know of anyone who would say otherwise. The whole reason inverted systems exist is to allow airplanes to fly the types of figures you'd see in competition. The 7ECA is not much more aerobatic than a 172. But if you had a Decathlon, you'd be wrong if you thought you'd necessarily do any better in an Extra.

    Quote Originally Posted by ssmdive View Post
    No, I don't know the answers. I can only tell you that the prevalent attitude I have gotten is "buy a better plane, or go away". Some times I wonder why I even voice my opinion on the topic since I know the answer I will get.
    I have been around IACers long enough to know that 99% of them would not tell you to go away unless they were just tired of hearing your negativity and complaining....if that happens to be the case with you. In my experience, IACers are very welcoming of all types of pilots and airplanes. A 7ECA is not unheard of. You seem to have a chip on your shoulder for some reason. I don't know who you hung around, or the attitudes or responses you observed, but in my experience, it is what you make it. After awhile, it becomes less about the actual flying, and trying to do well, as it does the camaraderie and the friends you make.
    Last edited by RetroAcro; 04-14-2014 at 06:04 PM.

  9. #9

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    I will suggest that if you want to enjoy aerobatic competition, you have to begin with the idea that the purpose is to fly better today than you did yesterday, and fly even better tomorrow. And you have to like hanging out with guys trying to do the same. Like golf, we don't really fly against each other, we really fly against the last score we posted and how well we did yesterday. I can not change your score, nor you mine. I can only go out and try to post a new personal best score. Against that backdrop I can have fun flying any airplane at a contest and pick the category based on what the airplane can do. And have fun.

    I fly a Pitts because I get satisfaction from the challenge of bringing my "A" game to every hop. Pilots with too low amounts of appropriate tailwheel time actually typically don't get into a Pitts simply because their insurance company won't let them or they choke on the quote for coverage. On the other hand, I have met a number of low time pilots who flew Pitts. I even knew a student pilot who flew an S-1C. Never got the nerve to ask which CFI signed him off. And I presume that they either paid the higher insurance premiums or went without insurance.

    Citabrias are great because you can load them up and go to the beach, or you can toss all of the extra gear out and go do loops and rolls. And when you do acro, they make you fly through every figure. No getting lazy at the stick. Yes a Citabria can fly Sportsman. Will the pilot have to fill in for the performance that it gives up to Pitts and Extras? Absolutely! But if you bring yours to a contest I can assure you that no one on the Judges Line is saying "Oh its just a Citabria" as you dive into the box. The Judges will be waiting to see if the guy flying can do that "pilot stuff" and make the airplane dance across the box.

    Competition is hard. Its supposed to be. No getting around it. Only the guys who bring their best stuff, make it all work that day, and maybe have a little luck on their side get to take home a trophy. The rest look at what they flubbed and go home to practice for next time. Competitors are by definition people who do not accept that one contest defines their skill level. They go home and work on showing up at the next contest ready to post a higher score. They persist because the journey is important. The trophy sitting at the podium can be bought at the store for maybe $35. But a competitor will spend many times that amount to build the skills and experience that might allow them to take that trophy home at the end of a contest. And we arrive at a contest knowing that all of our "friends" have been working just as hard.

    IAC is an organization of competitors and people who like competition. In an aviation population of mostly guys (and gals) who mostly fly to breakfast or to vacation, the number of folks who look for competition will always be small. If you want a comparison, how many pilots race a Reno each September? IAC is bigger than that! The challenge for IAC is to get more pilots interested in aerobatics under the umbrella of IAC, even if those pilots don't ever compete. IAC has not figured out how to reach the numbers of people that it needs, but I will offer the suggestion that making the competition easier won't bring in more members.

    Now my chapter has been scratching our head about the folks who can not commit a 4 day weekend to a contest. And IAC at the national level has been willing to work with us, so we have tried a one day, one category contest. Have not done it enough to figure out if our pilots will really participate in larger numbers. But chapters can try different types of contest formats so long as the basic IAC rules are followed.

    So you dance with the airplane that you bring. Come and fly your ship to 100% of what it will do and impress the Judges. A good flight will get good scores.

    See you at the box,

    Wes
    N78PS
    Last edited by WLIU; 04-14-2014 at 08:21 PM.

  10. #10

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    I must be blunt - you are making a lot of judgments and jumping to many conclusions based on very little experience........ How could you know anything about the statistical likelihood of a pilot with some basic competence in a 7KCAB scoring higher than a pilot in an Extra in Primary when you admit you don't know much and have very little experience with this stuff? If you spent some time perusing the contests results, you might see some interesting things.
    Now who is jumping to conclusions? You know nothing about my professional life, what I do 8ish hours a day for 20+ years.

    But since you know so much more than me, when was the last time a 7ECA placed in Sportsman at the nationals? When was the last time a 7ECA won primary at the nationals? You claim I have not done my research, provide your data.

    I have been around IACers long enough to know that 99% of them would not tell you to go away unless they were just tired of hearing your negativity and complaining....if that happens to be the case with you. In my experience, IACers are very welcoming of all types of pilots and airplanes. A 7ECA is not unheard of. You seem to have a chip on your shoulder for some reason. I don't know who you hung around, or the attitudes or responses you observed, but in my experience, it is what you make it. After awhile, it becomes less about the actual flying, and trying to do well, as it does the camaraderie and the friends you make.
    A good number of members have been great. But I have also run into the ones talk down to me..... Often when people lack the facts to support their position they insult the opponent while avoiding data driven discussions. They also tend to try and move the goalposts. Such as changing the point of discussion from the topic to something that is not able to be supported by data. This was a discussion about airplane performance in classes..... Specifically, how some rounds are designed to favor the higher performance aircraft, but I brought how some aircraft are at a disadvantage even in some classes.

    I have seen this happen before, and I am seeing it again. Shame on me for trying to have a discussion about a topic that interests me.

    Edit: Wes, to your point I agree. You pay your money and do the best you can, trying to beat your own scores. And yes, in the end it is about the people, not the scores.

    But it when the image projected is that to have a chance you have to buy a plane you don't have..... The sport will not grow. You will not get the 8k RV's to give it a try. If you keep saying you don't care about the guy that has to decide between golf and aerobatics.... Then you just push the golfer away showing you don't care.
    Last edited by ssmdive; 04-14-2014 at 08:31 PM.

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