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Thread: Fair unknowns

  1. #21

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    Those who are new to competition often fixate on the "competition" aspect
    Might be because it is in the title.... If a pilot just wanted to hang out with pilots, we would be talking about a fly-in.

    I suspect this sport may not be for you
    I often suspect the same thing based in the responses I have been given.

    you'd get a lot of respect from other pilots for potentially doing so well with a 7ECA.
    I don't fly Acro to impress others.

    I'd be happy to run a one-design contest for all the hopelessly disenchanted-with-IAC 7ECA pilots out there...if there are any others.
    And a true one design contest would be fun. But I wonder how many pilots in aerobatic capable aircraft have been chased away from competition based on discussions like this? Read the posts from a neutral perspective.... There is a ton of underlying comments making claims that I want it given to me, I am not a good pilot, I don't want to train....etc

    Just for fun, I'll add some of my resume.... Competitive skydiver with silver medals at the nationals in 8way open, 16 way open, 10 way open. Won the Advanced class in 4 way, silver in Intermediate 4 and gold in 8 way, two world records, skydiving instructor and competition coach. My first aerobatic comp I placed 2nd in primary in the ECA. Every other plane was a Pitts. All the local guys said I could fly the plane in Sportsman, but I would stand zero chance at a medal and I'd have to fly the plane at redline and VNE to stand a chance.

    So:
    1. Beat on the plane to compete and lose in Sportsman
    2. Stay in Primary (which they removed the 45* upline and the spin.. Making it uninteresting to me and retained the 1/2 cuban and roll which if done correctly drops the oil preasure and kills the engine).
    3. Buy a new plane.

    Pointing out that an ECA has zero chance in Sportsman has brought me a bunch of people saying I 'irritate' them and claims that I want it given to me or claims that I lack basic skills.... Not exactly a welcoming wagon.

    But the Pitts S1S goes into prebuy soon. So I'll have nothing to cry about when I get my ass kicked in Sportsman in the future.

    But the main point still stands. The sport is dying, the sequences IMO should really have min and maximum aircraft, and new pilots are not always welcomed with open arms and instead talked down to... I have noticed in person they all tend to be nice, but online that is not always the case.

    The majority of people I have run across have been great.... But the ones that say I 'irritate' them, or claim I want it 'given to me' or claim I must lack 'basic skills' are the ones that stick out and close the sport to people who think they may want to try it.

    Just something to consider.... How many people get pushed away when they are talked down to?
    Last edited by ssmdive; 04-24-2014 at 01:20 PM.

  2. #22

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    Actually, I observe that the sport is not dying. Much to my surprise, over the last couple of years we have seen more competitors at contests. And folks are trying to organize more contests, not fewer. This year in the northeast we decided to not try a new contest location because the contest calendar is too full. In truth, for the last couple of years, with the state of the economy and the impact on most folks flying budget, I expected to see fewer competitors not more. I have been pleasantly disappointed in that expectation.

    Now that appears to be separate from the decline in IAC membership. There has always been something like 500 pilots who compete. The rest of the IAC membership has been pilots and individuals who thought acro was interesting enough to be a member and read the magazine, to the tune of 3000+ people. IAC seems to be losing those folks. Attracting those dreamers and casual aerobatic flyers is what IAC is not being very good at. Which is a different problem.

    IAC needs to get better at communicating excitement and contest results. I have had some conversations with some of the hard workers behind the scenes at IAC about this. Perhaps we can do better this season. The gallery needs to see motion and action in order to be interested.

    Best of luck,

    Wes
    N78PS

  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by WLIU View Post
    Actually, I observe that the sport is not dying. Much to my surprise, over the last couple of years we have seen more competitors at contests. And folks are trying to organize more contests, not fewer. This year in the northeast we decided to not try a new contest location because the contest calendar is too full. In truth, for the last couple of years, with the state of the economy and the impact on most folks flying budget, I expected to see fewer competitors not more. I have been pleasantly disappointed in that expectation.
    I will defer to your experience.

    Quote Originally Posted by WLIU View Post
    Now that appears to be separate from the decline in IAC membership. There has always been something like 500 pilots who compete. The rest of the IAC membership has been pilots and individuals who thought acro was interesting enough to be a member and read the magazine, to the tune of 3000+ people. IAC seems to be losing those folks. Attracting those dreamers and casual aerobatic flyers is what IAC is not being very good at. Which is a different problem.

    IAC needs to get better at communicating excitement and contest results. I have had some conversations with some of the hard workers behind the scenes at IAC about this. Perhaps we can do better this season. The gallery needs to see motion and action in order to be interested.

    Best of luck,

    Wes
    N78PS
    And that is what I am talking about. People keep saying there are 8K RV's out there but the IAC keeps the sequences behind a password.

    Opinion from a new guy..... It clearly is not welcomed by many.
    Last edited by ssmdive; 04-24-2014 at 01:33 PM.

  4. #24
    RetroAcro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ssmdive View Post
    Pointing out that an ECA has zero chance in Sportsman has brought me a bunch of people saying I 'irritate' them and claims that I want it given to me or claims that I lack basic skills....
    Nobody ever said that. You were implying that it's unfair to expect everyone to be able to fly like Giles Henderson. All I am saying is that Giles has basic aerobatic skills, and has put in the effort to truly get the most out his airplane. Nobody ever said you lack basic skill. I'm sure you could be a lot better, though. We all can. You competed in Primary in a 7ECA against three other Pitts, placing second at 78.49%. That's pretty good in my book. So you got a trophy in a 7ECA. Now I'm more confused. You have yet to fly a contest in Sportsman, yet you gripe about the chances of your airplane doing well...after doing well in Primary. Traditionally, the Sportsman sequences have hardly had more peformance requirements than Primary. Add a hammerhead, humpty, and wedge to last year's Primary sequence, and you have a Sportsman sequence. A little engine sagging and short oil pressure loss doesn't hurt anything. I have a friend who did very well flying his first-ever contest (in Sportsman) in a 100 HP non-inverted Clipped T-Craft. As long as that metal prop keeps windmilling, the engine will re-start. You'd never be able to deadstick a metal prop doing a Sportman sequence.

    Quote Originally Posted by ssmdive View Post
    The sport is dying,
    Compared to what time period? I feel over the years the sport has somewhat followed the general slow decline in aviation period. EAA has very limited ability to spur newer generations to learn to fly at greater rates. Similar with IAC and acro...not that IAC has zero room for improvement. There is no perfect organization.

    Quote Originally Posted by ssmdive View Post
    the sequences IMO should really have min and maximum aircraft..
    I guarantee you excluding the most popular aerobatic aircraft from certain competition categories will not be beneficial to the sport. It will only cause fewer pilots to come to contests - all in an effort to allow the pendulum to swing more in favor of very low-performing aircraft? It has been shown that pilots of very low-performing aircraft who have interest in competition are in extremely small numbers. You are unusual in that regard. It would be better to invent a non-inverted category than restrict the greenhorn acro pilot who happens to be flying a Pitts or Extra from competing in Primary or Sportsman. A whole lot of relatively inexperienced acro pilots fly very high performance airplanes. You can't ask them to go straight to the upper categories.

    Quote Originally Posted by ssmdive View Post
    the sequences IMO should really have min and maximum aircraft, and new pilots are not always welcomed with open arms and instead talked down to... I have noticed in person they all tend to be nice, but online that is not always the case.
    Don't equate the offering of differing viewpoints with being "talked down to". You started off with a very negative tone and lots of complaining, without any suggestions. You have recieved responses from a few experienced competition pilots who disagree with your assertions, and have attempted to articulate those points of disagreement. Yes, internet discussion is not always conducted in way people talk face-to-face. But it's a two-way street. If you are saying you've received negative attitudes online, that's a bit of the pot calling the kettle black. I'm sure if we were all sitting around in person, the tone would be different. Internet forums are not necessarily the best way to communicate.

    Go fly a Sportsman contest in the 7ECA. Try to have fun. You might even get a trophy, if you can even fathom that. Good luck.
    Last edited by RetroAcro; 04-24-2014 at 04:18 PM.

  5. #25
    Diana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ssmdive View Post

    Opinion from a new guy..... It clearly is not welcomed by many.
    Ssmdive, I understand what you are saying. Some of this was discussed in a similar thread here in the past:

    http://eaaforums.org/showthread.php?...-the-sportsman

    Two gentleman who posted in this present thread, Wes and Paul, were actually very helpful and supportive when I decided to compete in my Citabria six years ago. Giles Henderson was selected to be my mentor at the contest and he provided some useful advice and suggestions. Other pilots at the contest had some good suggestions for me. Some were helpful and made me feel welcome, and others couldn't be bothered with me, and a few made fun of me. I felt out of place, but I'm glad I did it once. I met some wonderful people at the contest who became my friends. It's possible that some pilots here will attempt to invalidate your experiences or opinions if they don't agree. Such is the way with some groups.

  6. #26
    WeaverJ3Cub's Avatar
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    ssmdive…a few points

    You’ve made a couple comments like this…

    But the ones that say I 'irritate' them, or claim I want it 'given to me' or claim I must lack 'basic skills' are the ones that stick out and close the sport to people who think they may want to try it.
    …but I think you’re getting that from my original post. I said it, not anyone else. So if you have to carry that grudge, carry it against me, not the others on here who have offered advice. Internet chat boards are difficult places to get across a nuanced explanation; poor choice of words on my part. Please don’t taint the good advice being offered here with my mistake.

    To clarify: Your record as a skydiver shows that you’re willing to work. That’s not at all what I’m implying. What I’m saying is what most everyone on this thread is saying “Yes, you can compete in Sportsman in the 7ECA. It will be challenging. Finishing “in the wood” will also be a challenge, particularly if a competent pilot shows up in an Unlimited-capable airplane. But you CAN do it. Practice hard, know your airplane, be a dedicated competitor and learn what you can, and you will do well. We’re confident in you….we don’t bring up Giles Henderson to put you down but to say “with work, it can and has been done.”

    So that’s why it is a little “off-putting” when your response is that you basically want the category simplified and better pilots/planes eliminated to make it easier for the 7ECA. You did well in Primary; why do you think with more work you wouldn’t do well in Sportsman? The solution shouldn’t be to eliminate everyone else to make your plane more competitive.

    A few other points….

    On Henderson winning Sportsman in a clipped Cub, others have provided that info. Yes, he showed up to that competition in the Cassutt, but look at his percentage. Nobody else in any category did that. Since you keep asking for data (which I would submit we have been giving you), I would rest my case on his record alone, since the clipped J-3 is arguably a less capable airplane than an ECA. So by your own rules, you should beat him any day in your mount, right?


    All that said…I hope to see you someday in the box. Seriously, come on out to the IAC East Championships in Ohio in June and compete in the 7ECA. We had 16 total competitors across all categories last year so I’m sure you’d have a more comfortable field. We’d love to see you come out and play with us, and hey…you’d be competing in the championships! Pretty cool stuff.

    http://iac34.com/15801.html
    Last edited by WeaverJ3Cub; 04-24-2014 at 08:21 PM.
    Classic airplanes at historic Red Stewart Airfield, Waynesville, OH: http://s1075.beta.photobucket.com/us...ic%20Airplanes

  7. #27

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    Edit: Never mind
    Last edited by ssmdive; 04-25-2014 at 04:02 AM.

  8. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by ssmdive View Post
    I honestly think the IAC does not care.
    IAC is a tiny organization of about 3,600 members, only about 500 of whom fly competition. We're IAC: you and I, Wes and Tony, your other correspondents on this thread and their pals. We're not some ethereal, faraway gaggle of untouchables. Others and I volunteer a pant-load of our energy and time – and reply to posts like these – exactly because we do care.

    If you think we're messing up – and we can be phenomenal at it – call and have a conversation. The national leadership is easy to find; check out the Yellow Pages on the website for our contact info. We all answer our own phones and most of us respond to email. Your regional rep is the best place to start, but call me if you'd like, too.

    Jim Ward, IAC Secretary
    603-860-4456 (cell, Pacific timezone)
    james.roger.ward@gmail.com

  9. #29

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    Well, I've had several Citabrias from 7ECAs to 7KCAB. I've sent several Pitts and extras off to do their homework. Even the 100 hp 7ECA is capable of Sportsman. Last year one of my best sequences flying the 7KCAB was flown at half throttle after I forgot to push it back on the dive into the box. I honestly don't care what you bring to the box. I'm putting my mark on the board as high as I can with the equipment I have and I'm taking that home as my trophy. And I can tell you there are guys who will attest that even flying their Extra, my marks put a challenge up for them. If anyone has a 7ECA they would loan me, I'd be more than happy to use it an event.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hq07ZLvXZBk

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