New FAA Ruling ?

[Bill Greenwood]

For years the FAA has had a rule against passengers using electronic tech devices on planes. It is not based on facts, and is plain ludicrous on it's face to think that a cell phone can affect an airliner. But truth and logic are often missing from official govt actions and there is always a portion of the public that is nervous about flying despite the statistics and gullible enough to believe that the FAA or Flight Attendant or someone must be vigilant to protect them from some unknown dread.

Anyway the story today is that an FAA panel may soon remove this restriction. So all those who believe in fairly tales better prepare their bombproof bunker in case one of the many falling planes lands on them.

A reader survey finds, 39% think the change will be safe, 16% believe it will be dangerous, 11% say they don't turn off their device anyway, and the rest made another reply.

[FlyingRon]

It WAS based on facts, it's just that things were out of date. Back when we used ADF and VHF radios and most portable electronics consisted of AM/FM radios and the like it was a problem. The FAA has ***ALWAYS*** granted the operator (i.e., airline) the authority to make decisions about what is safe. The issue has always been a risk versus revenue issue for the airliners. A few bad experiences with unexplained navigational events and early days of passengers carrying laptops didn't help the matter.

Your cellphone is largely useless in the plane these days (once off the ground). My phone rarely gets any useable service even at a few thousand feet in the Navion. The days of making unassisted cell phone calls died with the analog cell system. Of course, now the airlines have caught on that they can charge you for WIFI and soon relaying your cell phone calls, the "risk" will be recalculated.

[Greg Bockelman]

For years the FAA has had a rule against passengers using electronic tech devices on planes. It is not based on facts, and is plain ludicrous on it's face to think that a cell phone can affect an airliner. But truth and logic are often missing from official govt actions and there is always a portion of the public that is nervous about flying despite the statistics and gullible enough to believe that the FAA or Flight Attendant or someone must be vigilant to protect them from some unknown dread.

The way it was explained to me is that electronic devices could be used if it was proven that they did not interfere with the avionics/systems of the aircraft. Since it was impossible to test every device in every combination, it was just easier to ban all use in critical phases of flight.

It was also explained to me that a fuselage is like a giant wave guide and that the various emissions from the electronic devices could combine in unanticipated and undesirable ways. Again, the solution was to ban the use in critical phases of flight.

Given those explanations, I am ok with the ban. But I am also ok with lifting the ban if it is proven without a doubt that they in no way will interfere with the avionics/systems of the airplane.

[Bill Greenwood]

Ron, I don't think you or anyone can produce any fact that a portable am/fm radio, cell phone or any similar common device can affect an airliner. Saying that someone had "a few bad experiences" at the same time a passenger was carrying a laptop is not even in the same ball park as factual cause and effect proof.
Some years back, probably 20 or so, when all this nonsense started, Aviation Consumer did a practical test. They went up and did a actual flight, and tested it. They had the cockpit door closed so the pilots were isolated from the cabin, whiled back in the cabin some people had cell phones and computers, etc. The pilots flew both enroute and approaches and monitored their instruments while the passengers turned their devices on and off and so forth.
THEY COULD NOT PRODUCE ANY, NOT AN AFFECT AT ALL ON THE INSTRUMENTS AND AVIONICS, MUCH LESS THE PLANES FLIGHT.
Now the only thing is they didn't have an airliner like a 737 so they used a Learjet.

[FlyingRon]

Go back and READ carefully what I wrote before you decide to throw attacks at me. The 1960's era portable AM/FM radios and TVs *CAN* and *DID* cause issues with avionics. All you had to do is watch what happens when you got one near the antennas. So then how far away is safe, 10 feet, 100 feet? Where are the antennas on the aircraft compared to the cabin.

As for what I said about lap tops, again IF YOU BOTHERED TO READ, I didn't say it was a problem, I said these incidents in the day got a lot of attention and specifically led to them being restricted.

What aviation consumer is hardly a scientific test.


The biggest delusion is that people think the rules on electronic devices are all that is keeping them from using their cell phone in flight. In fact, it WON'T WORK. When it does work, it will involve a cell-like device on board, which I guarantee you will pay for (those who have used their cell phones on cruise ships outside of ports know what this is all about).

The FAA isn't budging on changing the rules. All there has bee commissioned is YET ANOTHER study on whether it is safe or not. Again, I very much doubt there will be any RULEMAKING on this. It will remain with the discretion of the operator, but given some INDUSTRY study with realistic guidelines, there may be some impetus for the operators to change their policy.

[Bill Greenwood]

Ron, did I catch you on a bad morning or a sore topic? Is just disagreeing with you the same as "decide to throw attacks at me." ? As or whether the FAA is going to change any rule, or not, what I reported comes from the news study as reported today on NBC and as previous reports. I didn't invent the story.It may be true and come to pass or not.

The Aviation Consumer flight was a real test,with real avionics and instruments in a real airplane during flight. It was blind in the sense that the pilots were not in communication and could not see the passengers, and vice versa, so that neither knew when the radios and phones in the cabin were being turned on and off. As I said, there was NO Affect at all produced on the airplane or instruments.
I have also tried this informally with cell phones and an Ipad in my Bonanza. Again, no affect on the plane. And my plane does have an ADF as well as vors, Loran, GPS.

Common sense will tell anyone that stops to think about it that if you could steer or disable an airliner this way, then Apple would sure be selling a lot of cell phones or I pads in the Muslim world and terrorists would not need to try to smuggle bombs or knives or guns aboard airplanes. Also since millions of passengers fly and perhaps 10% don't turn off their devices anyway, and US airlines have an excellent safety record, it is obvious that cell phones and I pad are not steering airplanes.

Lastly, can you find a single NTSB accident report where the prime cause of the crash is given as interference from a cell phone or laptop from a passenger? And I am not talking about a case of the pilot getting wrapped up in a computer and forgetting to land as planned.

[David Pavlich]

As an occasional airline passenger, I hope that the FAA NEVER allows cell phones to be used in flight. Imagine, if you will, someone sitting right next to you yacking on the phone for endless amounts of time. I know that cell phones don't do well at altitude, but someone will figure out how to make it work.

I got a great idea from the retired talk show host, Neal Boortz (he flies a Mooney, by the way). He said that if this ever happens and someone sits next to him (on an airliner, not his Mooney) and starts on the cell phone, he'll grab his copy of Sky Mall and start reading aloud. It would become an interesting moment!

David

[WLIU]

In the years since portable radios first used transistors, the issue of interference has gotten a lot of attention from the FCC (not FAA). Modern devices must pass Part 15 testing to show that they do not radiate, or conduct back into the power line, electromagnetic interference (EMI) that can disrupt the operation of other nearby electronic devices. The modern FCC standards have likely taken care of the issues that the FAA originally was concerned about. Interference events that occurred 30 years ago are unlikely to be repeated today as most of that old and electronically ugly gear went to the scrap pile long ago. That said, the FCC and the FAA are almost two different universes that barely intersect.

As noted above, the airline companies are extremely risk averse for obvious reasons and it will only be the profit motive that gets them to update their policies. So you should look forward to the day when the airlines figure out how to put a cell phone mini-cell in each aircraft and try to charge you for it. That event will bring down the barriers to using other devices and with the competitiveness of the airline industry, you can expect "reasonable" pricing for using your cell phone in flight. That pricing will likely limit the number of chatterboxes you get to sit next to, but let you call the family to let them know when your delayed flight is actually arriving.

Best of luck,

Wes
N78PS

[rwanttaja]

For years the FAA has had a rule against passengers using electronic tech devices on planes.

Actually, no. The FAA has no such rule. The airlines themselves decide whether to ban passenger devices.

The FAA has a *recommendation*, but no regulation.

Ron Wanttaja

[Mike M]

In the years since portable radios first used transistors, the issue of interference has gotten a lot of attention from the FCC (not FAA)....

It appears Wes has read the rules, which is no surprise, based on his prior posts. As opposed to some others in this thread so far. Here, folks, gain knowledge to avoid posting uninformed opinions:

ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?c=ecfr&SID=b89e6139c463605e12f34d98841db068&rg n=div8&view=text&node=14:2.0.1.3.10.1.4.11&idno=14

faa.gov/news/fact_sheets/news_story.cfm?newsId=6275

ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?c=ecfr&rgn=div8&view=text&node=47:2.0.1.1.2.8. 27.12&idno=47