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Thread: FAA Response to Young Eagles Petition

  1. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by dusterpilot View Post
    That's not true...You just can't get ALL the fuel. If you're flying a 4-place aircraft with 3 YEs on board, you can get 75% of the fuel; 1 in a 2-place and you can get 50% of the fuel. Just exactly as what is legal now for everyone.
    Yes, you can get all the fuel, plus you can get the fuel to get there and back...no restriction on how far you fly in transit, nor how much fuel...apparently it's a change, in b&w in the FAA decision. so i changed the color a bit so it stands out:

    "Therefore, pursuant to the authority contained in 49 U.S.C. §§ 40113 and 44701, delegated to me by the Administrator, Experimental Aircraft Association, Inc., is granted an exemption from 14 CFR §§ 61.113(a); 61.113(b); and 61.113(c) to the extent necessary to allow:
    1. Reimbursement, in the form of free fuel for the amount of fuel used in transit and during EF/YE events;"

  2. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by dusterpilot View Post
    ...What I don't think it would do is prevent continued YE flights by Sport and Recreational Pilots in Experimental aircraft, or prevent low-time pilots from conducting YE flights...It's clearly not what we wanted, but we aren't going to get an exemption that will help everyone. It IS a huge step toward the funding assistance we need to keep the program going.
    It prevents Sport and Recreational pilots and those with less than the minimum flight time requirements from participating in Flight Rally ops, and prevents us all from using anything other than standard category aircraft for Flight Rallys. No EAB, no SLSA, etc. It does not prohibit Sport and Recreational and low-time pilots from flying Young Eagles "individually" in EAB etc, meaning NOT at Flight Rallys. You are so right - two tiers of participants were created while implementing the facade of "one level of safety" for the great unwashed.

    So when we all dig into the same donut box after the chapter meeting then go fly Young Eagles, some folks will be getting reimbursement and "compensation", some will not. Those with the quals and certificates will have done all the paperwork to get "paid" in fuel or logged flight hours, some won't be allowed to participate in the Rally at all. So some will be at a fully sanctioned Flight Rally, some will just happen to have dropped by the airport. Some will need megabriefings and pounds of forms, some will need a YE certificate and brochure. Those with thousands of hours, instrument ratings, and twins will be limited to 2000/5 with less than 20 kt winds, the new Sport Pilot with 25 TT and an ELSA with no airframe manufacturer to set ASTM consensus limitations will be basic VMC. How about the 97-y.o. retired ATP/CFII who is flying his Ercoupe with a driver's license "medical" using sport pilot privileges, although holding a qualifying airman certificate and the aircraft is carrying a standard category airworthiness certificate? Free donuts or free gas?

    One level of safety. Your mileage may vary.
    Last edited by Mike M; 08-21-2013 at 07:12 AM.

  3. #13

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    YE program & 'the rest of us'.

    I am a low-time commercial pilot- ~2000 hrs.- and have flown hundreds of first-timers in the several acft I have owned, including an RV-4. I presently own a 'geezer hawk' 152/150 and have stopped flying 'newbies'. Why? Liability.

    Not long ago, I participated in a public activity where there was an 'incident' involving a heavy, waddling-type woman who twisted her ankle on uneven ground, broke something and sued the 'H" out of the organizers (unrelated to aviation). Anyhow, since that event and having watched the thousands of dollars exchange hands in all directions, I am very hesitant to take anyone flying I do not know. And, even then there's that gnawing concern.. what if the kid's grandma/mother/whomever gets a walk-about injury as they are walking to my hangar on my field?

    The last flying event I participated in had folks walking dogs on long leashes by spinning props, loose dogs running around starting-up acft, etc. Knowing how very much today's effete love there animals, imagine what that could cost in lawyer's fees.

    Anyhow, when I started flying many moons ago, kids were kids, hung on the fence and gratefully accepted a ride AND had <adult> parental permission sans lawyers.

    I guess what I am saying is that part of the demise of the free-flying, ride-offering of yesteryear has to do with more than just the price of fuel. Be careful out there.

  4. #14

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    I am not sure, but I think there was a fund raiser one night at the museum and quite a bit of money, maybe more than a $million was totaled up for the Young Eagles program.

    My question is what this money is used for? Obviously there are some admin and advertising costs associated with EAA running this program, but I would think it would run in the tens of thousands $, not anywhere near a million. And insurance is probably a signiificant cost also. Are these funds also used for the summer air academy? Don't the participant in that pay a fee or not?

    Since the main costs for Young Eagles and flying the adult first timers are furnished by the pilots/owners by using their own planes, it should not be so expensive for EAA.
    I have flown some dozens of kids and some parents, and never asked for free fuel, it didn't really occur to me, but I thought this was offered by Phillips or Shell or some sponsor, not by EAA. Some pilots have flown hundreds of kids and at least one is up to 1000!, so fuel reimbursment would be a big factor for them.

    What are the details for these programs and costs?

    I am all for the programs, especially now putting some emphasis on flying people of the age that are likely to start taking lessons and go on to be pilots and EAA members.

    And the most important thing is that these flights be safe, not whether fuel costs are reimbursed.
    When you are flying some Mother's child, you are responsible for the most dear thing in her life.
    We have shown that we can fly safely, with perhaps almost 2 million flown and as for as I know only a couple of accidents.
    Let's not let our standards down, no shortcuts of safety on these flights.
    Last edited by Bill Greenwood; 08-23-2013 at 05:10 AM.

  5. #15

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    After I wrote my post above, I phoned EAA to ask more about the program.

    The good news, there have been only two accidents in all the more than 1.7 million Young Eagles flown.
    Last edited by Bill Greenwood; 08-23-2013 at 05:00 AM.

  6. #16
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    I'm sure insurance is a big thing. The YE bumps up your insurance coverage to a million smooth and I believe also insures the ground workers at events. Frankly, if you're interested in the financials, typically all you have to do (as a member) is ask for them. I've had pretty good luck getting details out of the EAA in years past.

    Note the Gathering of Eagles is not exclusively a YE event. The money goes to YE as well as other EAA Youth Programs.

  7. #17

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    Ron, I assumed just as you wrote, that all one had to do to get details of the programs "is ask for them". That is just what I did and the lady seemed very reluctant to talk about it. Usually when I phone EAA the folks are very friendly and helpful, but not this time. Maybe I just caught her on a down day.

    I don't know how the EAA insurance works, but I assume the private owners coverage comes first in event of a claim.

    If we keep flying safely then insurance is not subject to claims paid out.
    Last edited by Bill Greenwood; 08-22-2013 at 09:47 AM.

  8. #18
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    Eh? Regardless of who pays first, the EAA provides supplemental insurance and that has to be paid for whether there are claims or not. We have had a fatal YE crash. I had a non-fatal crash (only claim was to my own insurer for some of the post failure damage). I got a nice letter from Steve Buss thanking me for not killing any Young Eagles. The ground people aren't going to be covered by any pilot's policy. I believe this is covered by some policy that applies to general EAA chapter activities. The pilots who fly YE's accrue credits for sending kids to the EAA Academy. I just sign mine over to the chapter so they can be pooled together to do something useful. I suspect that this is all included in the GoE and similar fundraising.

  9. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Greenwood View Post
    The not so good news, the lady I spoke to, "Michele" was initially friendly, but as soon as I asked anything about more details, especially the accidents and the amount of money involved she became very reticent and reluctant to answer questions and would not transfer me to someone who could give answers. She asked me what my "plan" was for finding out this information, which surprised me as I thought this would be public information and certainly available to any member. In the end she asked me my member number and took my phone number and said that someone would call me back. It seemed an unusual way to handle an info request that EAA has been public on some of it and should be proud of what they have done.

    Maybe I am missing some key idea here.
    Yep, Bill, no disrespect intended but based only on the way you told the story I believe you indeed are missing a key idea. "Michele" is the person who answered the phone for a $multimillion$ organization with tens of thousands of members. I may be wrong, but I don't think she's in the same pay grade with Jack and the big kids who talk to the press. Unknown caller, out of the blue, starts asking questions about a program for minors, progresses to accidents including fatals involving said minors, then wants to discuss financial information on the organization. Sounds like a classic "film at 11" sensationalist on a fishing expedition or a class-action specialist looking for paydirt. So AFTER all that, she gets your member number and phone number so one of the suits can call you back with answers that will pass muster with legal. Unless she was aggressively disrespectful, I say she deserves a pat on the back and free lunch.

    Your mileage may vary.

  10. #20

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    I don't use an alias, either on line or on the phone.My posts are in my name and when I spoke to the lady at EAA I used my name, the same one I had when I joined EAA in 1982.


    It may seem normal to you for EAA to be reluctant to talk about details of one of their major programs, but then I was not assuming that there was anything that was secret and I am certainly missing the key idea that EAA needed to hide things about these programs.

    I have since learned that EAA founder Paul P. passed away this morning. I had no idea of that at the time of my phone call which was probably 11,30 am Osh time.
    Maybe the lady was understandably upset, but she didn't mention anything even in general to me. Obviously had I known I would not have made that call today.

    I knew Paul just enough to say hi and talk about riding motorcycles with. He will be missed for a long time to come, and what a legacy he has left for us.
    Last edited by Bill Greenwood; 08-23-2013 at 05:02 AM.

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