Nice Tribute For Next Year At EAA

[John Leidel]

I find it interesting how the simple suggestion of honoring Vietnam Veterans at an airshow, just like we do those who served in WWI, WWII, Korea, etc.etc. etc has become a political pissing match. I understand the Vietnam War was a terrible situation on all levels. However those soldiers deserve our respect for serving Our Country regardless of their or our political views. The Vietnam Vets where crapped on by their fellow countrymen for to long. Even though it is way to late, I feel we should honor them and give them the respect they deserve. To hell with politics, this is about honoring those who fought and died for our Country, weather we agreed with the reason for the war or not.

[avinuts]

As this conversation has progressed, I thought that perhaps I would no longer post anything here to prevent further discord. As you can see, here I am putting another two cents worth in for the sake of background motive / clarification.
I AM NOT a Viet Nam Veteran, heck I didn't even serve in the military. That said, it doesn't mean that I don't respect anyone who did or that I don't want to thank them for what they did.
As you can see, I don't have a personal motive to pat myself on the back or look for some sort of recognition. Maybe I am a little selfish in that I do take pleasure in giving a Vet a pat on the back, shake their hand and saying a sincere "thank-you".
Members of our family have served in various branches of the military during different conflicts of which I don't think any were without some sort of controversy. My Great Grandfather fought in the Civil War at both Gettysburg and Fredericksburg. My father was in WW I. Family members were veterans of both Korea and Viet Nam. Our two daughters are veterans of Iraq and Afghanistan respectively.
Even though due to particular circumstances that I was not in Viet Nam I DO remember the times well. The Selective Service Draft. What it meant to be 1-S, 1-A or 1-Y. I remember protesters smashing windows and making threats to burn down the ROTC office on campus. The media putting a slant on reporting regarding those protests. I also remember proffessors on campus "declairing" a moritorium on classes in protest of the war. (my classes) I remember watching the nightly evening news with the daily body counts.
Oh, and then the people that I personally knew/know; there was my high school classmate, "Russ" who was KIA three weeks after arriving in Viet Nam. There was "Jerry" from my home town that had his F-4 shot down and spent six years of his life in the Hanoi Hilton. (Still has his sandals and mess cup) "Dick" was shot down in his F-4 and before being rescued, saw his "back-seater" exicuted by the Viet Cong. Or then there was "Heinz", who we invited to EAA Oshkosh back in the 90's when they had the Huey fly-over, cried and for the first time spoke to his family about his service in Viet Nam. Then there was "Brandt" and "Randy" both were Medics on Medivac helicopters who never spoke of their service until after many years of friendship. The demons that they had to live with were that they were affraid to be judged for the actions they commited "playing-God-like" humans and making life and death decissions every day.
In tribute to these guys and all of the other Vets, YES they do deserve recognition...........unfortunately, some of the names listed above are no longer with us to see it.
On Friday, July 2nd, our daughters will both be in attendance at EAA Oshkosh 2013 to participate in the Salute to Veterans Program. I hope that you stop by and meet them. Ask them what might have motivated them to do what they do......
A very proud parent.
Respectfully submitted,
Mike

[Bill Greenwood]

John, the sentiment is on your side, at least on this conservative oriented forum.

It is certainly in favor of having some demo in honor of vets, even those from Nam.

However, I think I have made a little progress; you have called this war, "terrible on all levels" so that is at least a small step in the right direction and away from those who never met a war they didn't like, especially if they get someone else to do the fighting and dying.

One last thing, what you call a "pissing match", I would call an intense discussion of a very important serious matter.. And I have tried to keep this civil, to debate the facts and ideas, not get into personal insults. And they can spout all day about how their taxes are too high or the wall at the border is too low, or how what we really need is more oil drilling or more nuclear submarines, and less regulation on coal mines or pipelines, etc. But let someone write or say something on the other side, and they bring out the Big Word,
POLITICS. I think is it latin or maybe greek for. "Not only don't I agree with you, and don't want to consider what you say, I don't think you should even have the right to say it."

There are many people, and to generalize especially older military men, who not only don't value, but can't stand any sort of discussion or debate. It is all black and white to them, no shades of grey. My Dad, a nice guy and a very honest man, was much like that. They fought for and in some cases honor freedom of speech, just as long as it agrees with them.

[Floatsflyer]

There are many people, and to generalize especially older military men, who not only don't value, but can't stand any sort of discussion or debate. It is all black and white to them, no shades of grey. My Dad, a nice guy and a very honest man, was much like that. They fought for and in some cases honor freedom of speech, just as long as it agrees with them.

My Dad was just like that. WW11 RCAF veteran. During the time of Vietnam I was a teen and then into my early 20's in university. He disliked my long hair, my politics, my music and my views of the time. BUT...he told me that if we lived 90 miles south(i.e. Buffalo, NY), he would have driven me to Canada himself to avoid being drafted and going to 'Nam. He thought that conflict was totally bogus and believed that the only reason for it's existence was to make the arms manufacturers fat with cash. And by the way, although my dad was ex-airforce, he never flew with me...he thought it was a big waste of money.(He was an entrepreneur, did very well but believed money should be only used to make more money, not wasted or spent on extravagences.)

[Bill Greenwood]

Floatsflyer
I have often wondered what I would have done if I had received orders to Nam. I don't honestly know, even to this date.
I was at the U of Texas during most of the early part of the war, with LBJ turning a minor thing into a major war. UT was great, I had played high school football and loved it, would have given most anything to play at Texas, only problem is I was about 2 inches too short, 100 pounds too light, and 3 seconds too slow in the 100. Oh, and I had bad hands as a receiver. But I got to watch Texas win the National Championship my freshman year and the next year they beat Alabama in the Orange Bowl and one of my Lamar High teamates was in when they stopped Joe Namath 4 times inside the 5 yard line.I thought I was in heaven without having to die first. I dated some fun, smart girls at UT, met Farah Fawcet once, and eventually manged to find a little study time to graduate with a degree in finance. I never played football there, but did coach an intermural team that only lost once to the champions. So I loved it there, and not just the fun I had, but the value put on learning and ideas; so different than the military way of following orders no matter how stupid or even illegal and immoral they were.
I had one bad experience at U T, in the summer of '66, my former dorm guy, a former Marine sharpshooter went nuts and shot 35 people from the tower. It did not make me love killing or guns or Marines with mental disorders. I can still see the blood and bodies. It didn't make me want to go to war and do it myself.
After college we didn't have draft numbers then, but I wasn't a student anymore. One day I was getting a physical from my Dad's family doctor. I had always had a bit of a problem with my back, a minor curve of my spine. He asked if I wanted him to write a letter of disability for the draft. THAT WAS A BIG MOMENT OF DECISION. I can still recall standing there, not knowing what to say. The smart voice in my head told me to take it, that here was a completely legit way to never have to go in any war. But there was another voice, probably the brainwashed one, and I knew that while my back pain was legit, and bothers me a lot these days;that I was well enough to play football or anything else. So like a dummy I said no to his offer, and got no letter. I joined the Air Force as they had openings in my home town and the Army unit in Austin didn't. And my Brother had been in A F and thought it was better, especially if you had an education.
I went to Lackland for basic training and it was spring so not too hot. It was a nasty 180* degree turn from college or high school. Football is a big deal in Texas, and practice, especially in the heat can be hard, lot's of work while coaches may be yelling at you. And high school coaches aren't always the brightest. But it was, "Work hard, give it your best"., and I could certainly get up for game day.
Basic training was different, the D I s were constantly yelling at you, not to work hard, but about how worthless you were. And talk about some low lifes, really ignorant people. Most of the recruits had been to or even finished college and the D I s could barely speak a complete sentence. I doubt if they could have finished at my high school. So they were such a joke that most of their attempts at pyscho abuse just went in one ear and out the other. I can't remember a single thing they said. I was actually surprised that there was not more physical exercise, mostly marching and listening to the abuse. I did well on the timed obstacle course run. You can do most anything for a month or so and I made it through. I grew up in the south, but the first overt act of racism I saw was in basic where the only Black guy was made to held back to repeat training despite performing the same as all of us. I can still remember that. So much for any ideals of fairness.
In tech school, like basic, the hardest thing was not getting enough sleep and I got a very bad case of mono,but did not go to the doctor until I got back home. So I didn't find anything motivating about the military, not even counting the war.

[Floatsflyer]

Bill, you actually knew Charles Whitman? I remember that tragedy like it happened yesterday--so sad.

[Bill Greenwood]

Floats, my freshman year I lived at the Goodall Wooten dorm, Charles Whitman was our dorm counselor, I was in room 606 and he was 2 floors above me, I think in 806. I knew him, but not well. He had already been in the Marines, so was older. When we'd get rowdy he would say, "come on guys, it's late, hold it down." He was never violent or even hard about it. He had a crew cut military type haircut, but others did then also. He was quiet and kept mostly to himself.
I never had any conflict with him, but I have always wondered if we had reached out to include him if that might have helped. We never asked him to join us to go out for a burger or a beer.
I went back to the dorm and looked in the rooms 2 years ago. I didn't say anything to the students there about why, just that I had once been there. I felt sick at my stomach.
It was 3 years later when it happened. I found myself hiding behind stone wall 20 yards from a pregnant lady who was lying on the hot August pavement in a pool of blood. I and another guy were going to run out and get the lady, when someone talked us out of it. They said, "don't go out there he shot a dog and it wasn't a very big dog." The problem was that he was behind cover and could see us, but we never knew what side of the tower he was on. The lady lived, her baby did not. I had an A in a course and had to drop it as my prof was shot, lived but could not teach then.
Whitman had complained of headaches, and an autopsy found a brain tumor. I think his main problem was an abusive father.
A very sad day, and not one that makes me want to see killing again.

[Floatsflyer]

Bill, what a horrific event to witness first hand-how awful. With every similar mass shooting event since, you must return to that imagery on that fateful day at UT. That must weigh very heavily on you. Perhaps that's why you started to fly...to get away from the craziness on earth.

[JimRice85]

In addition to waving the flag, throwing a parade, pumping your chest with proud patriotism, looking skyward at a Vietnam warbird tribute and other jingoistic activities, I also hope that you(and many others) will also appreciate the mostly unseen darkside of the US veterans underbelly and do something about that, something more than just "thank you for your service".

I'm retired Army. I'm pretty sure I appreciate it more than many. Been deployed and lost friends.

[avinuts]

I had the pleasure to meet and speak with Gary Wetzel, military advocate, Viet Nam War Veteran and MEDAL OF HONOR recipient. A truely great man along with the many others who were awarded this medal. He would be a reasonable participant to an event as listed above. In his words, "do not confuse the war with the warrior".




http://www.war-veterans.org/Wetzel.htm