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Thread: Nice Tribute For Next Year At EAA

  1. #21

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    Bill, I make it a point to not argue on internet forums. We'll just have to agree to disagree. My service was post Vietnam. Our job was to detect, track, and if necessary, destroy Soviet nuclear missile submarines targeting the United States. I trust you slept soundly during those years.

  2. #22

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    Mike, your post was the right thing. Don't think of apologizing since most agree with you. One dissenting voice burned up most of the bandwidth of this thread. And he even states that he wasn't there. When you get down to it, its about the people that WERE there! D@#&it. I met the best of the best.

    Our flight medics come to mind. I still recall seeing "Doc"Redmond (from NJ) wallking off his ship and into the ER carrying a small girl who was in seizure & bleeding from a bitten tongue. He handed her off saying "she's got meningitus." then he wiped the blood from his face. He had given her CPR all the way home. There was Ted High the fourth. AKA "Doc Soul." The first thing I heard of him was when he used a sole surviving son regulation to get his dad First Sgt Ted High the third turned around and sent home as he arrived at his101st Div assignment.

    Ted would get realy down when we lost a GI patient and he would unload on me. I could only listen and try to dig him out of his hole. After I got evaced home, a unit pilot called my hospital room to tell me that Doc Soul was gone. His ship had landed and he unplugged and bolted for the wounded. The ship had landed in a mine field.

    My first unit's supply room had had run out M-16s. I was preparing for a field standby in an active area. I was resigning my self to having only the S&W .38 when someone suggested checking with this certain PFC flight medic. He was a concientious objecter. Turned out he had 3 wall lockers jammed full of exotic firearms that he had "liberated." He lent me something. BTW, I wish every one could see a flight medic take the rescue hoist control pendant in one hand and go outside and hang below the skids by his monkey strap to help a wounded soldier on the jungle penatrator get up throught the trees.

    A mention was made of My Lai. .I was at Benning when we tried those guys. I was looking at one of my old maps couple of days ago and I focused on a village called Dak Son. It was attacked by two VC Battalions armed with flame throwers. No trials yet. The unknown Scout pilot at My lai had a name. Hugh "Buck" Thompson. He was a friend. He passed away half dozen years ago in the Lafayette,LA area. He was a Veterans Service Officer.

    Many,many other heros. Too many to mention. I didn't meet any war criminals. Lets see. Bless all the gunship pilots for looking out for me and my friends. Lets not forget the USAF crews at Phan Rang AFB. Specialy Shadow 61 (AC-119G) of the 17th SOS. Many thanks. Oh yeah, The 20th SOS Green hornets. They live nearby at Hurlbert AFB these days.

    Sorry for going motormouth and burning up the band width. Mike, Its a perfect idea. Now lets change the subject to airplanes. Dave S: I think the VP guys are neat. I grew up next door to NAS Brunswick and sometime caught hops there. I know what you did.

    Bob.

  3. #23

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    Well, Bob we agree on one thing at least.

    I couldn't recall his name, but Hugh Thompson was the helicopter pilot who was flying over My Lai and saw what was happening and twice landed to try to stop the shooting of civilians.
    He then rescued and got about 10 out of the area.
    His testimony is one of the reasons we know what happened there, and the coverup eventually was broken.

    One can see how much opposition there is just on this forum to anyone like me who thinks it is important to speak out about the truth in something as critical as this.
    It would be a lot more accepted if I was writing something like "who's better, M J or LeBron, or what's the best fighter?

    You can imagine how hard it was for Thompson to land in the middle of scared, angry, armed men and try to stop a killing frenzy, and the criitsizm he must have faced.
    I saw the headline when he passed away a few years ago, sadly of cancer at 62. You can easily look him up on Google. He was given medals, but 30 years later.

    I never met him, but I'll bet his parents were very proud of their Son.

    I wonder if we will ever see a helicopter at Oshkosh with his name or markings of the one he flew, and a storyboard for if?
    Last edited by Bill Greenwood; 07-08-2013 at 11:32 AM.

  4. #24
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    No matter your viewpoint, 3 things continue to be abundantly apparent:

    1. Vietnam remains as divisive as ever 50 years later.

    2. Old wounds run deep.

    3. The biproduct and coping mechanism of a highly charged and controversial subject is, in some instances here, the rearing of the ugly head of revisionist history.

    By all means, give tribute and recognition to those that had to take part in this horrible and misguided conflict. "Where have all the young men gone. Gone to soldiers everyone. When will they ever learn, when will they ever learn."

  5. #25
    JimRice85's Avatar
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    At least some folks still appreciate the soldiers, sailors, airmen and Marines for their service regardless of their agreement about the war. Too bad everyone can't.

    http://www.upworthy.com/after-such-a...mn-time?c=ufb1
    Jim Rice
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  6. #26
    This is just one opinion, but flying various warbirds of different eras does not mean that we as a society are honoring the killing of the enemy or the bombing of civilians or the right or wrong of why war occurs. We are instead honoring the veterans who, many times at no fault of their own, have been put into extraordinary circumstances. War is hell. Terrible things happen during war. At the same token, some amazing acts of bravery, fellowship, kindness, sacrifice and heroism take place. It seems to me that war brings out the best and worst in people.

    Paying tribute to the veterans of the different eras whether it be WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, the Gulf War, Iraq or Afghanistan, or any other conflict by flying/showcasing/talking about/etc. the warbirds that they flew is honoring all those aspects that are the best of people, while at the same time remembering the worst so as not to repeat it.

    This is just a ridiculous example to prove a point, but your Spitfire Bill was designed as a killing machine. As beautiful as a Spit is to see fly and as wonderful as that Merlin sounds as one swoops by, it was above all developed to kill and destroy. My beloved Thunderbolt was a terrible killing machine, as was the P-51, the B-17, etc. etc. If all I thought about was the deaths caused by warbirds, they'd have no place in my life, but instead I love them for what they represent to me - the bravery and skill of the pilots and crew that flew them, the dedication and effort of the men and women who built them, and freedom that they represent (to me).

    As the son of a Vietnam veteran proud of my father's service, I for one would be thrilled to see another Vietnam tribute flight during AirVenture. Just my $0.02...

    Zack

  7. #27

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    Zack, I hope we are still friends, if not you can toss those eggs at me before they get boiled and deviled.
    So let me try again to communicate.

    Why do I write any of this? Why not put a photo up of the Spitfire and me in a flight suit. Most folks, those who have not been polluted by diesel fumes or oil dripping radials would pretty much be on my side, even though there is a big difference between a real fighter pilot and just someone who has been lucky enough to fly fighters. Why not just be one of the good old boys, share the kool aid, and have no stress? Believe me, I enjoy that as much as anyone. I like people and like to socialize at EAA. Why set myself up as a target?

    BECAUSE I THINK IT IS IMPORTANT TO SPEAK OUT. I THINK IT IS OUR DUTY.

    Now, I am not totally naive, I don't think a few paragraphs from me are going to cause Nixon or Westmorland or Lt. Calley to rise up and say they were wrong and ask forgiveness. Actually Lt. Calley has said that, and continues to, look it on Google.
    But just maybe, someone will actually be open minded enough to read and consider the facts that I wrote, such as after 45 years despite all the military propaganda, the vast majority of our people consider that war wrong.

    Notice that on this forum, all the other people disagree with me, but most of it is emotional. One man denigrated me for not being in the military or combat, but when I asked him to give me facts about positive things about this War, there was no reply.
    In 40 or 50 years I have never heard any TRUTHFUL OR MEANINGFUL FACTS TO SUPPORT THIS WAR,and I have heard some top vets speak.
    It is almost always, like you have said,that my Dad or my friend served well or even heroicaly; or that in some vague way we were fighting some bad guys.
    And this war was not just a mistake to be quickly put right; it went on and on, 15 years, perhaps 2 million Vietnamese dead as well as ours.
    I don't know details of your Dad's service, I am glad he returned safely. But many, many of our young people did not return as they left. I don't think he should have been sent there in the first place, and certainly not after the first few years.
    Did you know that when LBJ took office he was given a secret study that said short of using nuclear weapons we were unlikely to win that war? He just ignored it and kept on sending young people to do what he had never done in WWII. After all it, some of his supporters made lots of money off the war.Nixon promised peace, but escalated the war when in office. He had a study that said many of the victims of bombing cities would be children, didn't interfere with his sleep at all.
    There is also such a thing as giving witness in the religious sense. 70 years ago, smoking cigarettes was accepted, in restaurants, schools, etc, and smoke pouring out of factory chimneys was the picture on many stock certificates. Driving a car without your kids being in seat belts or after you'd have a few beers was the norm, and it's not now. There was a time, in my lifetime when some Americans were not welcome in hotels, restaurants, bus stations,pro baseball, even college football teams, or our military.
    How did this change? Not by one person standing up and saying it's wrong, but if more and more people do, things can change over time.

    Can you and EAA honor the vets without propagandizing in favor of the war? Maybe you can.

    I am not trying to downplay or degrade anyone who did their best as a soldier there. It could have been me there. One of my good friends, Major Warner Giles, who flew to Oskosh with me a number of times, was a combat vet in Nam, gunships and F4s. Earl Ketchen flew 60 combat missions in Nam in A-6s, before he taught me to fly warbirds. I am sure he would have been with us at Osh if he had not been lost in a P-51 accident. Another pilot friend and EAA member flew Skyraiders there. He is a real gentleman a husband and Father, a nice, quite type of guy, except he has a good sense of humor and loves a good joke. I have not talked to him in any depth about his Nam service, on even much about Skyraiders, but once in a quiet moment he said, "I killed a lot of people." I didn't go into details, but he didn't sound happy or bragging about that.

    But that is not what you wrote, "at the same time remembering the worst". Let's be straight, no act of helicopters or Skyraiders at an airshow is going to mention the worst or anything negative. It is all going to be as the Bob Dylan song says, "mostly saying hooray for our side". There isn't likely to be any signboard near any helicopter explaining what Maj. Hugh Tompson did at My Lai or his testimony before Congress.

    And what did Avinuts write at the start of this topic? "Not only a good show, but also a GOOD EDUCATIONAL OPPORTUNITY FOR THOSE YOUNG PEOPLE WHO AREN'T OLD ENOUGH TO REMEMBER VIETNAM."

    Yes, it has been a long time since the war, and many people, did not live through that era and they may not remember how bad it was, but I did and I know it was the worst thing I have seen our country do in my adult lifetime. We had sort of a smaller but parallel version of it in Iraq and there is always a danger of it happening again

    Re Spitfires: If there is such a thing as a just or good war, then England against Hitler would be it. Churchill did not have to invent some big lie like WMD or Tonkin Gulf phantom attacks to start the war; there was no doubt that the Nazis attacked France and then England, and he didn't have to lie to keep the war going.
    And if there is any such thing as a cleaner weapon , maybe Spitfires are it; they were designed as a defensive fighter to stop German attacks, they weren't designed to invade some 3rd world country.
    Last edited by Bill Greenwood; 07-09-2013 at 07:55 AM.

  8. #28
    Mayhemxpc's Avatar
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    Agree with Zack 100%.

    As far as why I didn't respond again to Bill, well...Mark Twain's observation about arguing with certain people came to mind. That and (1) I thought the others said all that needed to be said, (2) this started down a path I thought inappropriate for the forum, and (3) I thought we got way off track for the original intent of this string.

    So is the general (if not unanimous) agreement in this string that we should try to arrange such a memorial flight for next year?

    -- Chris

  9. #29

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    Well Col. Mayer, after such a factual presentation of positive things about that War, how could I still have any doubts? Maybe I am completely mistaken as are my sources. Maybe we really won that war and Nixon was a pillar of honesty.
    All the bad info probably came from the liberal media, anyway.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimRice85 View Post
    At least some folks still appreciate the soldiers, sailors, airmen and Marines for their service regardless of their agreement about the war.
    In addition to waving the flag, throwing a parade, pumping your chest with proud patriotism, looking skyward at a Vietnam warbird tribute and other jingoistic activities, I also hope that you(and many others) will also appreciate the mostly unseen darkside of the US veterans underbelly and do something about that, something more than just "thank you for your service".

    The following is published by the U.S. National Coalition for the Homeless and the US Department of Veterans Affairs:

    "Far too many veterans are homeless in America—between 130,000 and 200,000 on any given night—representing between one fourth and one-fifth of all homeless people. Three times that many veterans are struggling with excessive rent burdens and thus at increased risk of homelessness.

    Further, there is concern about the future. Women veterans and those with disabilities including post traumatic stress disorder and traumatic brain injury are more likely to become homeless, and a higher percentage of veterans returning from the current conflicts in Afghanistan and Iraq have these characteristics.

    The U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs estimates that 131,000 veterans are homeless on any given night. And approximately twice that manyexperience homelessness over the course of a year. Conservatively, one out of every three homeless men who is sleeping in a doorway, alley or box in our cities and rural communities has put on a uniform and served this country.

    Approximately 40% of homeless men are veterans, although veterans comprise only 34% of the general adult male population. The National Coalition for Homeless Veterans estimates that on any given night, 200,000 veterans are homeless, and 400,000 veterans will experience homelessness during the course of a year (National Coalition for Homeless Veterans, 2006). 97% of those homeless veterans will be male (Department of Veterans Affairs, 2008).

    The U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs (VA) says the nation's homeless veterans are mostly males (four percent are females). The vast majority is single, most come from poor, disadvantaged communities, 45 percent suffer from mental illness, and half have substance abuse problems. America’s homeless veterans have served in World War II, Korean War, Cold War, Vietnam War, Grenada, Panama, Lebanon, Operation Enduring Freedom (Afghanistan), Operation Iraqi Freedom, or the military’s anti-drug cultivation efforts in South America. 47 per cent of homeless veterans served during the Vietnam Era. More than 67 per cent served our country for at least three years and 33 per cent were stationed in a war zone.

    Here are some statistics concerning the veterans homeless:

    23% of homeless population are veterans
    33% of male homeless population are veterans
    47% Vietnam Era
    17% post-Vietnam
    15% pre-Vietnam
    67% served three or more years
    33% stationed in war zone
    25% have used VA Homeless Services
    85% completed high school/GED, compared to 56% of non-veterans
    89% received Honorable Discharge
    79% reside in central cities
    16% reside in suburban areas
    5% reside in rural areas
    76% experience alcohol, drug, or mental health problems
    46% white males compared to 34% non-veterans
    46% age 45 or older compared to 20% non-veterans"

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