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Thread: Nice Tribute For Next Year At EAA

  1. #11
    Mayhemxpc's Avatar
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    If you haven't been in the military, much less combat, it is probably something beyond your understanding. (Some people do. My wife chimed in, saying that OF COURSE we celebrate Garry Owen Day!) The French Foreign Legion commemorates Camerone Day, for a battle in which one of its regiments refused terms of surrender and was wiped out. The Swiss Guard commemorates the day their soldiers died to the last man defending the Pope. Heck, even Cinco de Mayo is actually the commemoration of a Mexican defeat to the French.

    Yes, it is a day of parades, games of a military nature, songs, sometimes a ball or a dining-in, and lots of fun all around. It starts, however, with a retelling of the battle, a listing of the names of the men who fell, and a commemoration of all of the soldiers of the different squadrons of the regiment who have fallen in battle...too many to name individually: Indian Wars, Mexican Expedition, WW2, Korea, Vietnam, and Iraq (both times).

    Aside from that, the the "command" was not wiped out on June 25, 1876. The regiment suffered a little more than 1/3 casualties (which certainly constitutes a defeat in any army at any time.) The detachment that Custer was with was killed to the last man, but the other two columns survived. The regiment departed on the campaign from Fort Abraham Lincoln in the Dakota Territory, where the 7th was stationed at that time, not Fort Riley.

    See notes above. We don't celebrate war. We commemorate the honor and valor of those of us who have gone before. And DON'T start on whatever you think you know about Custer. Just face it, you were wrong to try to cast any dirt on the memory of those who have fought in ANY of our nation's wars and to attempt to deny them the honor they deserve.

    Let's move on.

  2. #12
    JimRice85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mayhemxpc View Post
    If you haven't been in the military, much less combat, it is probably something beyond your understanding. (Some people do. My wife chimed in, saying that OF COURSE we celebrate Garry Owen Day!) The French Foreign Legion commemorates Camerone Day, for a battle in which one of its regiments refused terms of surrender and was wiped out. The Swiss Guard commemorates the day their soldiers died to the last man defending the Pope. Heck, even Cinco de Mayo is actually the commemoration of a Mexican defeat to the French.

    Yes, it is a day of parades, games of a military nature, songs, sometimes a ball or a dining-in, and lots of fun all around. It starts, however, with a retelling of the battle, a listing of the names of the men who fell, and a commemoration of all of the soldiers of the different squadrons of the regiment who have fallen in battle...too many to name individually: Indian Wars, Mexican Expedition, WW2, Korea, Vietnam, and Iraq (both times).

    Aside from that, the the "command" was not wiped out on June 25, 1876. The regiment suffered a little more than 1/3 casualties (which certainly constitutes a defeat in any army at any time.) The detachment that Custer was with was killed to the last man, but the other two columns survived. The regiment departed on the campaign from Fort Abraham Lincoln in the Dakota Territory, where the 7th was stationed at that time, not Fort Riley.

    See notes above. We don't celebrate war. We commemorate the honor and valor of those of us who have gone before. And DON'T start on whatever you think you know about Custer. Just face it, you were wrong to try to cast any dirt on the memory of those who have fought in ANY of our nation's wars and to attempt to deny them the honor they deserve.

    Let's move on.
    ^^^This^^^

    Hooah!

    Jim Rice
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  3. #13

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    Mayhem, 5 companies out of 7 the started out under Custer, that is all the men who took part in the main attack were wiped out. Some of the other 2 had losses also.
    I didn't "cast any dirt on the memory of those".
    History deals with such matters and it is pretty well agreed the Custer"s bad leadership led to so many deaths of his men.An example is refusing to listen to warnings by experienced Indian scouts.

    As for where Custer started out. well I went to a fort on an Army base which I thought was Ft. Riley, Kansas, and we visited the house on base that Custer and his wife lived in before he went to the Little Big horn. This was perhaps 15 years ago and we were there to honor my friends Father in Law who took part in the Normandy invasion. I may be wrong about the name, maybe it was at Ft. Leavenworth where Custer certainly was in 1867-8, and had a trial there, but I am certain we flew east from Colorado and did not go to the Dakotas. Also in researching the song, Garyowen, it says Custer took command of the 7th cavalry at Ft. Riley.

    And yes I was in the military, though not with Custer. It did not change my ability to read or think. LIke many other young people back then, I accepted the general premise that military service was my duty, just like my Brother and Grandfather, so I joined.

    And one of the greatest things we could do for our young men and now even women in the military is value them highly and avoid putting their lives at risk unless it is really warranted. Since you seem to think combat gives you a special wisdom, I'd like to hear exactly what you think was so positive about the Vietnam War, and worth over almost 300,000 U S casualties, not to mention a million or two of the Vietnamese? What did we gain from it?

    And the value of a war, the right or wrong of it, has nothing to do with the valor of how any soldier fought. Wars bring out courage in soldiers and both sides often fight with bravery. That alone does not make a cause right any more than it did when men fought to preserve slavery or for Hitler. In the case of the Custer campaign, it was basically to steal Indian lands since gold had been found in the Black Hills. And that is not just my opinion or claim, it took a century, but finally U S courts ruled that we had stolen the land from the Sioux. The ruling gave a large financial amount for the Indians, but they won't take it as they want their land back.
    Last edited by Bill Greenwood; 07-06-2013 at 04:50 PM.

  4. #14

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    Dialogue is always a great thing. It makes people think. Certainly, everyone is entitled to thier oppinion, right or wrong. The subject of this post which is open for discussion remains to be a "tribute" to those who fought in a particular war / conflict in our Nations history. What makes men and women fight during adversity? Why is there not total caos during battle? Why is there no mass desertion? I am sure that the troops under Custer probably didn't really want to be there any more than many who didn't want to be in Viet Nam under the policies of President Johnson. But they were, and did thier jobs. Military people don't make wars, they fight them...
    War is H@#L ! Men and women who do thier duty deserve recognition for thier personal sacrifice up to and including death. Ignoring history will not make it go away. It is fact. Embrace it for what it was and learn from it. What better way than from the words of those who experienced it first hand. A "tribute" to those who fight is not a glorification of war and the two should never be confussed. You are entitled to your view of politics, but don't get into a discussion on whether people in the military should or should not be Honored! My original post for having such an event stands. Regardless of where this goes, THANK YOU to all military people past, present and FUTURE !

  5. #15

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    Avinuts, you sound like a nice guy.
    1st. Many people talk about freedom of speech/press and everyone having an opinion, but they often act as only opinions they agree with are ok.
    2nd. You wrote "military people don't make wars they fight them". Just being in the military should not make one only a follower of whoever is starting or pushing for war. They should also be citizens and people and Fathers and Mothers.
    One of the awful things about some wars and Vietnam in particlar, is that the public is hoodwinked, even lied to, in order to start the war, and continue it. Those pushing for it know that all too often that parents will send their most precious thing, their Sons and now even Daughters to die or be maimed for some ill defined scheme if you can make it sound patriotic.Back then we had the Tonkin Gulf resolution as an excuse to start the war, in our generation we have "WMD", which were claimed to be weapons of mass destruction but what more trully could be called words of much deception.

    What if we had national vote, back around 1963 or so, and the question was simply: "Shall we start a war in Vietnam that will last 15 years, cost us 58,000 men killed ,and a quarter million wounded and kill a million or two Vietnamese, and cost not only $billions of your tax dollars ( I don't have that figure) as well as lost respect for our nation around most of the free world? And by the way, we lose the war in the end. And that is not to even mention some of our men who sat in N V prison camps for 5 or 6 years while the military and their leaders just kept the war going.
    How would that vote go? Or if you could have it now?

    You mention "politics" and LBJ. I wasn't writing anything about "politics" , not about any candidate or any election. However, since you brought up LBJ who did not start the war but certainly escalated it, let us not forget Nixon would carried it on for more years and more men lost,as well as civilians killed here at home.

    3." You say ignoring history will not make it go away". I strongly agree, but many military people act like it is unpatriotic to face what a disaster Vietnam was and to resolve to not let false leaders like LBJ and especially Nixon lead us down some path like that again.

    4. And my view of this war is not just my "opinion" it is what the overwhelming majority of historians and as polls now show what the majority of Americans now know about this war.
    Last edited by Bill Greenwood; 07-06-2013 at 04:50 PM.

  6. #16
    Rick Rademacher's Avatar
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    From my prospective, the U.S. military didn’t lose the Viet Nam war. U.S soldiers were pulled out by political leaders to let the poorly equipped and poorly lead South Vietnamese soldier lose the war. The current conflict in Afghanistan may be a repeat.
    Are you suggesting that we who served in Viet Nam be forgotten again because we served in a highly controversial war? What about those serving in Afghanistan and those that served in Iraq? What about the Korean War vets. Do they get the same treatment?
    I would hope that all who served our country in the military with honor would be recognized for their service. To give Viet Nam veterans special treatment once at Oshkosh would mean something to me and others who served this nation in that conflict.
    Last edited by Rick Rademacher; 07-07-2013 at 05:50 AM.

  7. #17

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    Bill, I understand your points, but I disagree with your premises. The wave of appreciation we show our troops now days is admirable but the military members from the Vietnam and post Vietnam era deserve the exact same respect and admiration. Those of us who served during that period (I flew antisubmarine missions from 76-84) did not get the cheering crowds and thank you's we earned by putting our lives on the line so you and all American could enjoy the freedoms we defended. As for the Vietnam war, historians are starting to piece together how America's anti-communism conflicts, including Vietnam, played a key role in stemming the spread of communism and ultimately ending the Soviet Union.

  8. #18

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    Rick, you and I look at the Vietnam War, and seem to see the opposite things. I see the suffering and the lies, ("remember the light at the end of the tunnel") and you see the effort of the individual soldier, and maybe even some "valor".

    Let me give 2 somewhat parrallel cases.

    My Son is a lawyer, he worked like a slave to pass law school and the bar, even after two consussions from accidents. I am very proud of him. He has been a prosecutor, deputy District Attorney, and is moving to private practice. I hope he is financially sucessful, but if he does it representing polluiting chemical companies, or organized crime, or mass murders, I won't be bragging on how clever and determined he is.

    War is like chemotherapy. It is awful, and almost kills the patient while trying to kill the tumor. It should be used only when warranted. No good doctor would give it to a healthy person just for the experience or to make a profit for the drug company.
    Even WWII, which most people would agree was a "just war" in the sense that we really were fighting two evils and we were in the right; still resulted in 50 million deaths and many of them were civilians, like at Hiroshima and Nagasaki. War makes otherwise decent people do horrible things. We are currently condemning Syria for using chemical warfare, but we did it in Nam with agent Orange.

    The invasion of Iraq and Afghan, came to a large extent from the 9-11 attacks, or at least that is the basis the war was sold to the public on. However, we have lost about twice as many dead and ten times as many maimed in these wars than the 9-11 attacks and the war goes on and on. Somebody needs to say, wait a minute, less use some logic and not just emotion and propaganda here.

    You mention Korea, and while I served during Vietnam and have researched it, I don't know much about Korea. It was a nasty place to fight, but we didn't lose the war, we got a tie or better at least. We don't control the North , but they don't control the South.
    Why don't you start a topic on Korea or the other wars and see what comments you get.

    And I'd like to hear about your service, when you went in, under which President , where you served, what you did and most of all, what you knew about Vietnam before you went in? Did you know that after WWII , the U S opposed a democratic election that would have united the north and south, because they did not want the socialist Ho Chi Minh to win?
    Last edited by Bill Greenwood; 07-07-2013 at 06:43 AM.

  9. #19

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    Dave, you have written politely to disagree and I will try to reply in kind.

    1. I didn't write and never said that vets don't deserve recognition. What this topic started on was Vietnam era planes and the celebration of them at EAA, and I said I don't think hooray for that war is the right thing.

    Can the vets be honored and not the war? That is a fine line, a grey area, not really my point. I went in the service in 69. I was never in danger, not in Nam, not in combat; all I risked and wasted was my time. I am glad I wasn't killed or wounded and I am even more glad that I never killed anyone else.
    I am pretty sure that if I had been in at My Lai or other situations, I would have done the right thing. But, I guess way back in the corner of my mind, I have some doubt, I am not 100% certain that in the heat, anger, and fear of that situation and all the orders and peer pressure to do the wrong thing, that I might not have done something I would regret forever.
    I don't feel that I served anything, I was traditional enough to think that somehow I needed to do my part and I did as required.
    When they ask vets to stand for applause at the football games, I sure don't think they are talking to me.
    The loss or risk I did feel was that shortly after joining I knew enough to know we probably were not going to win the war, and also that Nixon was not the kind of person that I wanted to be part of his his cause.
    The shootings of unarmed college students at Kent State by army troops, and Jackson State, were major events for me. Here I was, a year or so out of college, and the military that I was part of was shooting students and Nixon making excuses for it.My Lai was the same type of thing, but on a much larger and worse scale. I wasn't some morale leader, just a normal person, but I had some sense of decency and I knew right from wrong. I have a soldier that I admire, can't remember his name. He was a Black Sergeant from I believe Ala. He refused to shoot women and children at My Lai. He was just a normal guy, not a highly educated history or legal scholar. But he said afterwards that his Mother taught him right from wrong. There was also a helicopter pilot who was flying over and landed to try to help. Those are vets I'd like to meet.

    Your claim that the Vietnam War somehow led to the faliure of Soviet Union is one I haven't heard before. I think Bernie Madoff or P.T Barnum would be envious of that one.

    One of the most telling things I have read about the whole war was:
    Imagine yourself as a young Russian military planner about 1960. You tell the Kremlin that you know how to lure a the US into the land war in Asia that Gen Ike warned about. This war will go on 15 years or so, cost the US $5 Trillion (in 2008 dollars), result in 58,000 U S dead and 5 times that many wounded, have most of the world look down on the US as the invader of a 3rd world country, and cause major unrest and hurt the economy in the US and eventual outing of 2 Presidents,end with an ignomius retreat off the embassy rooftop, and most of all do this without costing a single Russian soldier, only aid to N V.
    If the Kemlin believed and followed this advice, the man would have become a hero of the Soviet. BUT WE DID ALL THIS TO OURSELVES, WIILINGLY AND REPEATEDELY.

    And 40 years later you guys still try to come up with some ways to twist history.

    The facts are we started a war with a 3rd rate backwards country in support of a corrupt dictatorship, and we lost. You may not want to say that, but you know it in your heart. And while you can find people at an airshow or military event that still will espouse the party line, polls of the general public show about 80% disapproval of the war.

    The remaining 20%, just for interest ,is not far from the % that still smoke cigarettes.

    And a small point, if you flew anti subs patrols, it wasn't Nam war service as even Nixon didn't claim Nam had any subs did they?
    Last edited by Bill Greenwood; 07-08-2013 at 09:55 AM.

  10. #20

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    I am sorry that this post has taken the route that it did. That certainly was not my intention with the original post. Sometimes, I guess, good intentions get bad results. I am not so naive to think that everyone is always in agreement. Although, it appears that statistically there were five people that thought that it might not be a bad idea and one person that did. So again, my original post stands for evaluation. I don't want this to be a topic about personlities, but I do believe that there are personal issues that come to light. Perhaps less time should be spent writing at nausium and re-read the original and subsequent postings by me that indicate this is NOT about "a hooray for the war" but A TRIBUTE TO THOSE THAT FOUGHT IT! Anyone who thinks that this thread should be about another issue, might consider starting thier own.

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