FAA & Congress Members Respond to $500,000 "Ransom" for AirVenture

[obmaha]

The fee being asked for is for air traffic controller lodging and travel. They are not asking for any of the salaries for controllers at OSH, not to mention overtime to cover them at their facilities, and overtime at places like MKE and Chicago TRACON. The logic of your super bowl and Christmas time scenarios doesn't apply because there is no cost to move or lodge controllers since they already work there.

Also, everyone who voted for smaller government take a long look in the mirror. You wanted it, this is what it looks like.

Lastly as being a former resident of Wisconsin I am curious why EAA has not asked the state to help pitch in. They have made millions if not billions over the past 30 years from EAA and AIrventure. You would think they would want to keep Airventure around. 400,000 dollars seems like a drop in the bucket to the millions of revenue this event brings into the state.

[FloridaJohn]

The fee being asked for is for air traffic controller lodging and travel. They are not asking for any of the salaries for controllers at OSH, not to mention overtime to cover them at their facilities, and overtime at places like MKE and Chicago TRACON.

Wrong. The fee includes travel, lodging, salaries for the ATC at OSH, AND overtime to cover their shifts at their home fields.

There are about 100 controllers that come to OSH, so the nearly $500,000 fee from the FAA results in a cost of around $5,000 per controller. That is a little high for just travel and lodging, even for the government.

The logic of your super bowl and Christmas time scenarios doesn't apply because there is no cost to move or lodge controllers since they already work there.

There is still overtime to pay, and for events like the super bowl, I would be very surprised if they didn't bring in extra controllers from somewhere else. It's not like these ATC facilities have that amount of extra capacity just sitting around waiting for the super bowl to come back to town every 5-10 years.

Also, everyone who voted for smaller government take a long look in the mirror. You wanted it, this is what it looks like.

I'm all for smaller government, but this is not what it looks like. What everyone seems to forget, is this is a service we have already paid for in advance. Every time you pump a gallon of Avgas, twenty cents goes directly to pay for ATC services. Oshkosh air traffic control services were already budgeted in the annual FAA budget (and have been for decades). The fact that there is more air traffic every year around the last week of July in Wisconsin is a surprise to no one.

I don't understand how smaller goverment means we get to pay twice for everything. Seems like the exact opposite to me.

[obmaha]

Wrong. The fee includes travel, lodging, salaries for the ATC at OSH, AND overtime to cover their shifts at their home fields.

There are about 100 controllers that come to OSH, so the nearly $500,000 fee from the FAA results in a cost of around $5,000 per controller. That is a little high for just travel and lodging, even for the government.

I stand corrected, to a point. I looked at the contract and saw that they budgeted 90,000 for overtime (my guess is that is overtime worked at OSH not backfill for their facilities). That is a nice break from the FAA considering that won't come near to the actual cost of overtime. Lets just look at the 80 (not 100) controllers coming to Oshkosh. If each controller averaged 80,000 a year salary which is very much on the low end probably seeing many of the controllers are veterans. That is 42 dollars an hour. 40 hour work week equals 1,680. But wait, we forgot the OT to backfill. That equals 2,520 for each controller for a grand total of 201,600 dollars in OT. Again using low ball numbers. Again, not even counting the OT for surrounding facilities.

[QUOTE=There is still overtime to pay, and for events like the super bowl, I would be very surprised if they didn't bring in extra controllers from somewhere else. It's not like these ATC facilities have that amount of extra capacity just sitting around waiting for the super bowl to come back to town every 5-10 years.[/QUOTE]


I have worked a super bowl, and yes we used OT. They brought in a small amount (I believe under 10) controllers to work temp towers at relief airports. To this date there has not been a super bowl during sequestration. My guess the jury is still out on who will pay the bill. That being said the amount of money for airventure vs super bowl is laughable. One day event verses a weeklong event. Come on now, apples to oranges.

we have already paid for in advance.[/B] Every time you pump a gallon of Avgas, twenty cents goes directly to pay for ATC services. Oshkosh air traffic control services were already budgeted in the annual FAA budget (and have been for decades). The fact that there is more air traffic every year around the last week of July in Wisconsin is a surprise to no one.

I don't understand how smaller government means we get to pay twice for everything. Seems like the exact opposite to me.

I understand the argument for double taxation and it bothers me as well. That being said I have heard that around 300,000-500,000 dollars are collected in fuel tax at airventure. I would be curious to see a hard figure on that amount. That being said I don't think the fuel tax covers the true cost of airventure from the FAA side.


Overall this is my 24th year going to Oshkosh. I love it there. While I agree the FAA has not handled this in a good manner, you can't tell me after Sun'n'Fun that EAA didn't see this coming. I can see both sides of the argument and respect yours and others views of this.

[FloridaJohn]

I stand corrected, to a point. I looked at the contract and saw that they budgeted 90,000 for overtime (my guess is that is overtime worked at OSH not backfill for their facilities). That is a nice break from the FAA considering that won't come near to the actual cost of overtime. Lets just look at the 80 (not 100) controllers coming to Oshkosh. If each controller averaged 80,000 a year salary which is very much on the low end probably seeing many of the controllers are veterans. That is 42 dollars an hour. 40 hour work week equals 1,680. But wait, we forgot the OT to backfill. That equals 2,520 for each controller for a grand total of 201,600 dollars in OT. Again using low ball numbers. Again, not even counting the OT for surrounding facilities.

I agree with your calculations, but really, that FAA "budget" for OSH is pretty sparse. There is no detail, that I am aware of, of how they came to those numbers in the first place. So, yes, they only list $90,000 for overtime pay, but they list a staggering $340,104 for "travel." Using your number of controllers as 80 (which is probably more accurate than my earlier guess), that is $4251.30 for each controller's travel arrangements. Divide that by the 15 days they will be providing services and that is $283.42 per person per day. The GSA shows the per diem rate for Wisconson as $77/day for lodging and $46/day for meals, for a total of $123/day for travel, using government rates. So the FAA is charging the EAA 230% of it's cost for "travel." Pretty good profit margin on that.

Frankly, I don't think the FAA ever put together an actual budget for OSH before they forced the cost onto EAA. That is why their budget lacks considerable detail and doesn't even pass basic back-of-the-envelope calculations like you did for overtime and I did for travel. I don't think they really expected EAA to want that sort of detail.

I have worked a super bowl, and yes we used OT. They brought in a small amount (I believe under 10) controllers to work temp towers at relief airports. To this date there has not been a super bowl during sequestration. My guess the jury is still out on who will pay the bill. That being said the amount of money for airventure vs super bowl is laughable. One day event verses a weeklong event. Come on now, apples to oranges.

My response was only to your statement that expenses to the FAA were so much lower for the Super Bowl because they didn't bring anyone in from out of town, but as you just said, they clearly are. So the only real difference in price then is the number of controllers required and the number of days needed. I would guess the Super Bowl will cost around $5600 per controller per day (based on the EAA rate). So your ten controllers will cost $56,000 additional each day of enhanced ATC services during the Super Bowl. I also would guess that the extra controllers are needed for more than one day, since a lot of people fly in for the weekend and are flying before and after the Super Bowl and not just during the day of the big game. So if we figure three days, that is $167,971.50 to either the NFL or the host city for services during the Super Bowl. So I don't think they are completely different, just different in size.

Even though there is a Super Bowl every year somewhere, and it should be budgeted into the FAA budget just like everything else. If the FAA needs more money, they can go to congress and ask for an increase in the fuel tax. That is how the process is supposed to work.

While I agree the FAA has not handled this in a good manner, you can't tell me after Sun'n'Fun that EAA didn't see this coming.

I think the EAA did see this coming. The EAA was the one who had to force the FAA to put down in writing what they wanted the money for. Heck, they had to force the FAA to even admit they were planning on charging the EAA. The FAA should have been giving notice in February, not May, if they were going to substantially change the rules of the game.

[MEdwards]

Did House of Representatives members ever send a letter to the FAA like the Senate did?

[flibmeister]

(my guess is that is overtime worked at OSH not backfill for their facilities)

Your guess would be wrong-- the FAA is very specific that the overtime costs being billed to show organizers is to cover for the absence of controllers at the home facilities, not for the event itself.

One thing I'd like to point out: the practice of the FAA charging event organizers for the cost of additional ATC services is NOT new-- NASCAR and the PGA, just to name a couple, have been paying such fees for years. And, the FAA has been attempting to get other events to sign reimbursable agreements for years, although they've generally exempted aviation events, if local ATC folks found a way to pay for it out of their local budgets.

What's new is that the FAA is now requiring reimbursable agreements for ALL special events, even those previously budgeted-- no discretion, no exceptions.

[obmaha]

Your guess would be wrong-- the FAA is very specific that the overtime costs being billed to show organizers is to cover for the absence of controllers at the home facilities, not for the event itself.

I am just curious if you can cite a souce or article where the FAA has been specific about overtime costs? Everything I have read has been very non-specific about the costs including the contract.

[Hal Bryan]

I am just curious if you can cite a souce or article where the FAA has been specific about overtime costs? Everything I have read has been very non-specific about the costs including the contract.

You'll find it on page 17, here:

http://www.eaa.org/news/2013/2013-07...TC-charges.pdf

[flibmeister]

I am just curious if you can cite a source or article where the FAA has been specific about overtime costs? Everything I have read has been very non-specific about the costs including the contract.

The position of the FAA regarding where the overtime money goes (ie, that it's used to pay controllers at the home facilities who cover the absence of the special event controllers) comes straight from the mouth of an FAA "OSG Airshow Specialist". I've been in discussions with him for months, regarding a reimbursable agreement for the temporary tower at the Copperstate Fly-In. The way he explained it to me, doing it that way is for the show organizers benefit-- if, after the show, it turns out that the absence of the controller from his home facility didn't result in the need to call in OT, the show organizer will get a refund.

[DFH65]

Eliminate the class three medical for private pilots flying non-commercial and it should cover it and then some.