An electrical system is irrelevant to ELT. You have a single seat aircraft so an ELT is not required.Originally Posted by 1600vw
I seriously doubt it but it's nice to dream.I ask this question because today I am located at a field with an RC club. This RC club has had this field to themselfs for many many years. Now I have come on the seen and the old timers do not like it.
By the converstation they had with me yesterday I believe a ramp check is in my future. They really do not like me.
I was just ramp checked yesterday. I fly an experimental amphibious seaplane called an Aventura II by Aero Adventure. The FAA asked to see 'the limitations'. I said "Well, I have a POH that was made by the builder." They kept saying no, that to be legal to fly I needed to have the 'Limitations'. I opened up the POH and it did say the word limitations on the title page of the POH. I said, "The acronym is AROW, not ARLOW" and they smiled. After a small conference between the two of them they said that I was all good but that I should look into getting a copy of the limitations and carrying it in the plane in the future. Is this an FAA experimental requirement - or is it a couple of FAA guys that dont get to ramp to many experimental aircraft and not have something to pick on? They were charmingly nice.
Last edited by Tanille Elaine DeLair; 06-24-2014 at 09:56 AM.
Tanielle,
Yes, for an experimental, you are required to carry a doc called Operating Limitations. Phase 1 limitations are used during the flight test period. Phase 2 are used for post flight test activities.
They are generated by the DAR during the airworthiness inspection.
You might contact the original builder to see if they still have them.
You were lucky they didn't come down harder on you.
The FAA guys are correct. Part of the special airworthiness certificate is a set of operating limitations which must be carried on board the aircraft at all times. Having someone list various limitations in a handbook is all well and good but not a substitute for the FAA issued operating limitations. I would imagine you do indeed have this document.
The Operating Limitations for an experimental amateur built aircraft are generally just 2 or three typed pages. They tend not to look like much but as noted above they, or a copy, have to be in the aircraft.
If you can not find a copy of your operating limitations locally, then I believe that they are part of the aircraft records at the FAA Aircraft Registry in OKC. For a very nominal fee they will send you a computer CD with their files for your aircraft.
As I noted above you do not have to carry a copy of your operating limitations or Airplane Flight Manual with original signatures on it. In fact, most airplanes that carry ops lims or AFM's do not have originals. So you are free to make a couple of copies and put at least one in a safe place with the rest of the aircraft records.
Best of luck,
Wes
Last edited by WLIU; 06-24-2014 at 12:12 PM.
Wes, we all know there's a wide range of opinions within the FAA. Not disputing you, but my DAR said absolutely positive, I had to ensure that I had the original signed papers, not copies. Maybe that was for Phase 1; I don't recall. I also haven't bothered to see if there's any FAR out there that says it one way or the other.
Like you, I'm apprehensive about having the originals there, but am following the instructions from my DAR. This was a DAR representing the Ft Worth FSDO (before they were merged).
I too used to think that. But one day I was prompted to go looking through the FAR's and FAA docs to find out whether I was required to have an original Airplane Flight Manual in the airplane signed in blue ink. And I went looking, and I looked in FAA Order 8900.1, and I found no such thing. The Part 23 airplanes that I fly have a printed AFM with reproduction signatures. The factory doesn't provide an AFM with original signatures.
I am open to someone digging deeper than I did to find specific guidance, but all of the guidance that I have been able to find says that an AFM, or in the case of an experimental the Operating Limitations, for that individual airplane must be in the airplane. A lawyer will tell you that the language does not say the original must be in the airplane. And since a copy is good enough for Part 23 airplanes, and there is no difference specific guidance for experimentals, what am I missing?
Best of luck,
Wes
N78PS that came from the factory with crappy copy AFM
Last edited by WLIU; 06-24-2014 at 06:17 PM.
Carl, you're not the only person told one must have the original ops limits in the aircraft. "What do you need to do if your operating limitations are missing or lost? The operating limitations are a part of the aircraft’s permanent file at Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, so getting a copy is as simple as calling the FAA Aircraft Registration Branch. You can reach them toll-free at 866-762-9434. You’ll need to provide them with the N-number, builder name, and serial number of the aircraft. They’ll be happy to fax you a copy of the operating limitations." http://www.eaa.ca/experimenter/articles/2010-12_darside.asp
when one follows Joe's advice, one is then carrying a copy of the original. to me it makes more sense to keep the original in the aircraft logbook and carry a notarized copy of the original, since my bank provides free notarization services for customers.
your mileage (and the correct answer) may vary.
..
Notarizing doesn't make anything official, it just attests for the signature made by the person appearing in front of the notary as being verified.
The requirement is that the limitations be carried. They don't need to be the original or even a photocopy of the original, just that they convey the same text. I.e., you could reformat them and make your own operating manual out of them. I'd keep the original one as signed by the inspector SOMEWHERE for proof if there ever is an issue.
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