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Thread: I am with the FAA this is a Ramp check.

  1. #41

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    The Operating Limitations for an experimental amateur built aircraft are generally just 2 or three typed pages. They tend not to look like much but as noted above they, or a copy, have to be in the aircraft.

    If you can not find a copy of your operating limitations locally, then I believe that they are part of the aircraft records at the FAA Aircraft Registry in OKC. For a very nominal fee they will send you a computer CD with their files for your aircraft.

    As I noted above you do not have to carry a copy of your operating limitations or Airplane Flight Manual with original signatures on it. In fact, most airplanes that carry ops lims or AFM's do not have originals. So you are free to make a couple of copies and put at least one in a safe place with the rest of the aircraft records.

    Best of luck,

    Wes
    Last edited by WLIU; 06-24-2014 at 12:12 PM.

  2. #42
    CarlOrton's Avatar
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    Wes, we all know there's a wide range of opinions within the FAA. Not disputing you, but my DAR said absolutely positive, I had to ensure that I had the original signed papers, not copies. Maybe that was for Phase 1; I don't recall. I also haven't bothered to see if there's any FAR out there that says it one way or the other.

    Like you, I'm apprehensive about having the originals there, but am following the instructions from my DAR. This was a DAR representing the Ft Worth FSDO (before they were merged).

    Carl Orton
    Sonex #1170 / Zenith 750 Cruzer
    http://mykitlog.com/corton

  3. #43

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    I too used to think that. But one day I was prompted to go looking through the FAR's and FAA docs to find out whether I was required to have an original Airplane Flight Manual in the airplane signed in blue ink. And I went looking, and I looked in FAA Order 8900.1, and I found no such thing. The Part 23 airplanes that I fly have a printed AFM with reproduction signatures. The factory doesn't provide an AFM with original signatures.

    I am open to someone digging deeper than I did to find specific guidance, but all of the guidance that I have been able to find says that an AFM, or in the case of an experimental the Operating Limitations, for that individual airplane must be in the airplane. A lawyer will tell you that the language does not say the original must be in the airplane. And since a copy is good enough for Part 23 airplanes, and there is no difference specific guidance for experimentals, what am I missing?

    Best of luck,

    Wes
    N78PS that came from the factory with crappy copy AFM
    Last edited by WLIU; 06-24-2014 at 06:17 PM.

  4. #44

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    Carl, you're not the only person told one must have the original ops limits in the aircraft. "What do you need to do if your operating limitations are missing or lost? The operating limitations are a part of the aircraft’s permanent file at Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, so getting a copy is as simple as calling the FAA Aircraft Registration Branch. You can reach them toll-free at 866-762-9434. You’ll need to provide them with the N-number, builder name, and serial number of the aircraft. They’ll be happy to fax you a copy of the operating limitations." http://www.eaa.ca/experimenter/articles/2010-12_darside.asp

    when one follows Joe's advice, one is then carrying a copy of the original. to me it makes more sense to keep the original in the aircraft logbook and carry a notarized copy of the original, since my bank provides free notarization services for customers.

    your mileage (and the correct answer) may vary.

  5. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by cdrmuetzel@juno.com View Post
    Carl, you're not the only person told one must have the original ops limits in the aircraft. "What do you need to do if your operating limitations are missing or lost? The operating limitations are a part of the aircraft’s permanent file at Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, so getting a copy is as simple as calling the FAA Aircraft Registration Branch. You can reach them toll-free at 866-762-9434. You’ll need to provide them with the N-number, builder name, and serial number of the aircraft. They’ll be happy to fax you a copy of the operating limitations." http://www.eaa.ca/experimenter/articles/2010-12_darside.asp

    when one follows Joe's advice, one is then carrying a copy of the original. to me it makes more sense to keep the original in the aircraft logbook and carry a notarized copy of the original, since my bank provides free notarization services for customers.

    your mileage (and the correct answer) may vary.
    ..

  6. #46
    FlyingRon's Avatar
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    Notarizing doesn't make anything official, it just attests for the signature made by the person appearing in front of the notary as being verified.
    The requirement is that the limitations be carried. They don't need to be the original or even a photocopy of the original, just that they convey the same text. I.e., you could reformat them and make your own operating manual out of them. I'd keep the original one as signed by the inspector SOMEWHERE for proof if there ever is an issue.

  7. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by FlyingRon View Post
    Notarizing doesn't make anything official, it just attests for the signature made by the person appearing in front of the notary as being verified.
    The requirement is that the limitations be carried. They don't need to be the original or even a photocopy of the original, just that they convey the same text. I.e., you could reformat them and make your own operating manual out of them. I'd keep the original one as signed by the inspector SOMEWHERE for proof if there ever is an issue.
    Ron by calling that number listed can one get that signed document from the FAA? Lets say someone lost the original from house fire or x-wife, or dog ate it.

    Tony

  8. #48
    Dana's Avatar
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    When I bought my plane both the airworthiness certificate and op limitations were missing. The local FSDO issued me a new original airworthiness certificate, and gave me a print copy (from a scan or fax) of the op limitations. If I needed anything more than that copy I presume they would have told me.

    Certainly you're required to have the original AC in the aircraft, but I'm very leery of leaving original documents in an open cockpit airplane... souvenir hunters steal the damnedest things sometimes. I know you're supposed to have the original, but I think if you're reasonable with an inspector he should hopefully understand.

  9. #49

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    You can call or go online to the FAA Registration Branch and they will send you a computer CD of the records for your aircraft that they have on file. This includes the operating limitations. The docs are in PDF format. You print the operating limitations pages. The signatures in the PDF are good enough. I believe that the FAA now destroys the paper after they scan it in.

    Oh, for what its worth, the FSDO data processing system is not connected to the Registration Branch data processing system. So if you go to the FSDO, it turns out that they send the same request that you do to the Registration Branch and get the same computer CD. Every FAA division is an island and a "different" FAA. So if you go to the FSDO, it just drags out the process.

    Best of luck,

    Wes
    N78PS

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