Mountain flying forum at osh

[WLIU]

So as this thread drifts along...

If you are traveling across the west and you do not need particularly to go to someplace in Colorado I suggest following I-80 through southern Wyoming to Utah, or the reverse. Navigation is easy, I-80 actually is about 6000' MSL most of the way but you wind between the clumps of peaks and there are airports at good intervals. Weather is almost the same as Colorado, which means mostly clear with the odd crappy day. You don't have to fight the Rockies as the road builders found the easy way. In fact, I-80 follows the same route across Wyoming as the original transcontinental railway. Which followed the wagon train route.

I flew an antique airplane from Boston to San Francisco and back and essentially followed I-80 from coast to coast. Made crossing the Continental Divide relatively easy. For a more northern route, I-90 works. I Follow Roads....

To Bill's point, you have to look hard at a sectional chart to understand how the mountain passes are configured. For example, Donner Pass from northern CA to Reno NV is 7000' high. On a cloudy day you might not be able to make it. Or another example is Hot Springs AR. If the ceiling is 2500' you can do pattern work around the airport all day but you aren't getting out of the valley to go anywhere else. In areas like these you have to know how get get more info from your chart than where the airports and VOR's are.

And Hal, I will guess that if the ceiling at Snoqualmie pass is 800' agl, but you know that the weather is stable and also good on the other side, that can still be a very long 15 minutes.... But the short and narrow ranges are a great way to learn about flying around rocks. You can go see but back out quick before Mother Nature closes the door behind you.

Fly safe,

Wes
N78041

[Hal Bryan]

And Hal, I will guess that if the ceiling at Snoqualmie pass is 800' agl, but you know that the weather is stable and also good on the other side, that can still be a very long 15 minutes....

Fly safe,

Wes
N78041

I'm sure you're right, but I wouldn't know - I never needed to cross so badly that I'd have considered going near it in those conditions.

[Bill Berson]

One of my pet topics is how when flying in mountains under a ceiling that is good VFR but precludes flying over to peaks, you need to have good sectional map reading skills. The newer GPS units show terrain, but if you turn down the wrong valley you can get into serious trouble. Without local knowledge it is unwise to go further into a valley if it is getting too narrow to do a comfortable 180 turn. And don't go through a pass or notch if you do not know that you can come back.

Wes
N78PS

Well said.
Lots of airplane wreckage is seen on mountainsides in Alaska where the pilot got lost and tried to go up a dead end pass thinking it was the real pass.
Not many roads to follow in Alaska.

[Bill Greenwood]

Two C-47 pilots told a story one year at Ohkosh about similar flying in Alaska, that brings chills to me even thinking about it.

They were flying a C-47 for an oil company way out in the boonies and the route was to climb to about 12.000 and go over some mountains until they came to the area near their desination. They had sort of a homemade IFR approach, since there were often clouds obscuring the way. They would find the mouth of the pass that led down the canyon and about 10 miles or so down there was the small airstrip and the work camp that depended on them for vital supplies. There was a beacon at the camp that they could pick up , but only once they descended into the canyon and flew around the final bend.
All went fine for months, but one day the weather was even more low clouds, but they were being well paid to do a job and men depended on them.
So they let down into the clouds at the mouth of the canyon and kept going and kept descending,flying the correct heading and finally broke into the clear at only a few thousand feet.
As they followed the canyon around the last bend, their hearts almost stopped. They realized that instead of the camp and airstrip they expected they had somehow gotten into the wrong valley and it ended in a mountain range. There was not room to turn around, nothing to do but pitch the nose up to best angle of climb, go to full power, full rpm, gear up and try to outclimb the terrain.
As they go back into the clouds, without being able to see what is in front of them, there is nothing to do but hope the plane doesn't fail them and both pray as hard as they ever have in their lives. They have several minutes to sit there, totally blind in IMC, and finally they pop out the top into clear air and are able to turn around and live another day.

I heard a recording of some unintentional flying in a mt valley.

Two guys were on an IFR flight plan, up high, perhaps 15,000 in an MU-2 when they got in bad icing conditions. They lost an engine and began to drift lower toward the terrain. They were on radar and talking to a controller, who gave them a vector and said they were ok down to about 8000 feet. Then the other engine quit, and a MU doesn't glide well, has wings the size of a Cub and weighs a lot more,especially with ice.

The radar controller is great, he stays cool and gives them a the best heading he can so that they go over the lowest valley. Then he loses even radio contact with the pilots.
The pilots have had plenty of time to secure the engines, feather the props and try to restart, but nothing works, They pray hard and keep sinking in solid IMC conditions.
Finally, about 3 minutes later the controller gets a radio call from the two guys he really never expected to hear from again.
"We"ve got one running and we are climbing", but they are not out of harms way yet. Finally, "We've got them both running and are climbing through 7500 feet."
After the they get clear on top and everything settles down the controller asks, "How low did you go?" and the answer "4800 feet". He is stunned, looks at his chart of all the terrain around that area with only one little sliver clear that low, and tells them, "If you went down to 4800 and you are still talking to me, it's a miracle."

They thanked the man greatly for his help.

[AmigoOne]

All these are great stories, keep them coming. I'm getting both more excited and more confident that just concentrating in the two or three major recommendations the trip can be made safely. Of course I continue to harbor a reasonable amount of apprehension which I believe it is good.

[N222AB]

Bill, I will also be giving a mountain flying talk on Tuesday at 11AM in the FAA building. I gave one last year and was surprised at the big crowd and interest in the topic. I gave seminars a couple of other times back in the '90s with the same interest, so I'm sure whatever you decide to discuss will be well attended. My talk this year will be on reading the clouds and understanding how the winds interact with the terrain (with some time lapse videos), along with a few other topics. Let us know when you'll be talking so we can all attend!

Bill

Bill Standerfer
Chairman - Colorado Pilots Association Mountain Flying Program
FAAST Rep

[Bill Greenwood]

Thanks, Bill. I think I may have asked EAA for pretty much the same time slot. I can't recall for sure, but I will check and see and try to make sure we are not at the same time. My talk is not that formal, just trying to get people to be safer, yet still enjoy flying to and in the mountains.

Today was such perfect weather, CAVU and light winds. We flew over Corona around 1 pm.and not even a bump.

Are you based at Ft. Collins, that is Loveland, and what do you fly?
For almost 20 years I had annuals done at Ft. Collins Downtown and flew in there many times. I do some of my instrument practice at Loveland.

[N222AB]

Bill, I'm at FNL and we have a Baron. I've always wanted to build something, but it's just never bubbled up to the top of the priority list. So, I go to OSH and drool over the workmanship of other people. I heard the flying weather was nice today, but I was teaching a FAAST safety stand down today in Laramie. I drove (sigh...), but it's half an hour to the airport or an hour to drive to LAR. Maybe tomorrow.

My time slot is fixed now since it's set by the FAA guys managing the programs in their building. I hope you can set yours at a different time so folks who are interested can attend both presentations. I'd certainly like to meet you face to face and hear what you have to say.

[Bill Greenwood]

I mostly fly a Be36TC which is the next notch down from a Baron.
Yesterday was a great flying day and today was a nice one also at least in the am. I went out to the Boulder airport where the CAP was doing glider fights for cadets.

This afternoon we went to a Derby watching party and that part of the day was pretty good also, my girlfriend had the wining horse in the pool and won $36 which will pay for a few day's lunch at EAA.

[Mtns2Skies]

Here's a Mountain flight for ya: